P1 Evolution class
08-28-2007, 01:00 AM
#11
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08-28-2007, 02:06 AM
#12
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Making P1 Work
Having to run to a set break-out speed in P1 has proved a problem this year for the series organisers. While boats have got quicker through better competition and design, the sea states we've had here in Europe so far (Malta aside) have been unusually calm. Apparently it's an insurance issue with the UIM (the world governing body) that prevents P1 from letting us run as fast as we like (or averaging over 87 MPH in Evo for example) and that's something we can't changed in mid season. So we've all been trying to find a solution and, following the farce that occured in the Friday Cowes race, we all agreed with the P1 organisers on race morning that for the Sunday race, we'd all do a parade lap, the timing clock would start and this would become part of the race. This gave us a lot of 'time credit' as the opening lap was slow and allowed us all to then run flat out to the finish. Sounds crazy at first but it resolved a tricky situation and was approved by the UIM officials. As race teams we all owe it to ourselves to get it right because the investment that P1 has put into this series must be in excess of $20M so far and they are committed to spend more to make it work. We shouldn't kill the goose that lays the golden egg.
08-28-2007, 09:20 PM
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08-28-2007, 09:38 PM
#14
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Why not get your own organization's act together before you start giving advice to a FIN !
P1 Powerboat has cured the situation of break out speeds for the moment.
They are doing their best to keep the competition close.
And from what I hear for next year, no one will have a chance at cheating !
The laptops can be left at the dock !
08-29-2007, 01:47 AM
#15
www.weismann.net
Gold MemberThread Starter
Chris,
Thanks for the explanation on the insurance. The rule was always said to be about safety not insurance.
Doug,
A,B class were changed to Factory 1 and 2. It was thriving before the class was moved to a one engine show. Engine builders are what supported racing in the states. OPA and SBI are proving that. When they went to a national series it hurt the little guys.
We raced a 10 yr old Scarab (Lucas Oil) against new boats and did very well. It was written out of the rules by OSS and SBI (SV). The drivetrain was not allowed on the new hull. only product that was not a threat to Merc.
We did the same with a 5 year non competative old boat called Zerodefect. 11 wins in 11 races US1 and World Champion was the result of that season. There were several of the same characters involved in the rule changes from the APBA days that are still making the rules today.
It is not hard to make the older boats competative. It is not that expensive either.
P1 is doing well and has heavy backing. If some mods to the rules are made it will continue to grow.
Sharky, Robbie is a fan. He likes Superboats. There is only one of those right now. Until someone challenges Reggie, he is #1. I thought Buzzi might step up but he is now an employee of Brunswick so I doubt it.
As far as cheating goes they need to have some hefty fines and loss of points and a stockade in order to have some deterent.
If you want I can start a thread on the long list of things (grey area) I have seen over the years. It might be fun.
pat W
Thanks for the explanation on the insurance. The rule was always said to be about safety not insurance.
Doug,
A,B class were changed to Factory 1 and 2. It was thriving before the class was moved to a one engine show. Engine builders are what supported racing in the states. OPA and SBI are proving that. When they went to a national series it hurt the little guys.
We raced a 10 yr old Scarab (Lucas Oil) against new boats and did very well. It was written out of the rules by OSS and SBI (SV). The drivetrain was not allowed on the new hull. only product that was not a threat to Merc.
We did the same with a 5 year non competative old boat called Zerodefect. 11 wins in 11 races US1 and World Champion was the result of that season. There were several of the same characters involved in the rule changes from the APBA days that are still making the rules today.
It is not hard to make the older boats competative. It is not that expensive either.
P1 is doing well and has heavy backing. If some mods to the rules are made it will continue to grow.
Sharky, Robbie is a fan. He likes Superboats. There is only one of those right now. Until someone challenges Reggie, he is #1. I thought Buzzi might step up but he is now an employee of Brunswick so I doubt it.
As far as cheating goes they need to have some hefty fines and loss of points and a stockade in order to have some deterent.
If you want I can start a thread on the long list of things (grey area) I have seen over the years. It might be fun.
pat W
08-29-2007, 02:45 AM
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Most MPH rules have more to do with cost of insurance, rather than keeping the boats packed tightly together. Remember these are "open" cockpit boats although too many of them have canipoied boats with lids taken off. Not very safe in my opinion since it gives the driver and throttle man a little more feeling of invincibility, and can lead to dangerous racing.
It actually wouldn't be that hard to install simple telemetry to figure out max RPM, but why would we evern want to bother with that when you can use GPS?
Limited story should be blamed on those commentating, not the rules. There are always plenty of stories about the guys in the boats, the people behind them, and different propulsion packages. There is a lot more potential there than there is for many other classes.
Actually the loose rules is what has killed the majority of classes. Look at any class you want A, B, SV or any other it's when new technology came in making the older boats obsolete that's what killed the classes. Many racers couldn't afford to buy a new boat every year to be competitive, so the guys with the money do and the others leave. When was the last time a 3 year boat won (in a non speed class) a race?
It actually wouldn't be that hard to install simple telemetry to figure out max RPM, but why would we evern want to bother with that when you can use GPS?
Limited story should be blamed on those commentating, not the rules. There are always plenty of stories about the guys in the boats, the people behind them, and different propulsion packages. There is a lot more potential there than there is for many other classes.
Actually the loose rules is what has killed the majority of classes. Look at any class you want A, B, SV or any other it's when new technology came in making the older boats obsolete that's what killed the classes. Many racers couldn't afford to buy a new boat every year to be competitive, so the guys with the money do and the others leave. When was the last time a 3 year boat won (in a non speed class) a race?
08-31-2007, 02:18 AM
#18
www.weismann.net
Gold MemberThread Starter
Doug, Thanks for the compliment.
2 of the 5 LLC owners were our customers. There were some major players involved on the tech commitee and a group of newcomers (racers) that were afraid that their investment was for nothing because they had the wrong package. They were easily swayed with big words like Parity were thrown around and Spec boats , hulls , props , ect....could make them champions. They could not throw out the engine builders right away because they were giving money(sponsors). That was only tried recently. The props were next. Very systematic.
We are a very small company and we cannot afford to support a series, only assist our customers.
Multispeeds,
They can help equalize the difference between boats now and reduce cost on propellers. It makes the boat safer and helps with missing the prop selection. Easier on the motor, i.e. getting on plane, abilty to set rpm range for a state ect...
We have run them in various configurations and complexity. The early boxes were on carburated motors then efi then diesel. Now we are making multispeed drop boxes in-line (input / output)2 - 6 speeds. We run a separate trans controller so we can shift just about every type of motor. Turbines are tough but we think we can do that too.
The cost of a gearset $750 per trans. Do it yourself labor. Try that with a #6 drive ratio change, you fill in the amount. Then cost a prop.
If everyone has it you can restrict the amount of gears or ratio or pitch of prop to equalize the competition.
SCL, early boats suffered from bravo drives late boats suffer from cost of drive units and need for a new hull to be competative. The latest motors are better than early ones. The latest boat is now the winner. I guess there was no advantage knowing everyones set-up, prop dia and pitch, gear ratio, drive height, driveshaft length, weight dry and wet..... must be talent. It would be cool to see a rudder boat with 8100's(496's) and multispeeds. What then......diversity, competition, cost reduction safety. I like driving rudder boats.
The hull over time accumulates water and damage. People overwash the hulls on the inside. They are not sealed. I drilled into the transom of Don Q once to mount a speedo and it peed out the hole for 15 minutes. They delam warp in the sun ect.. In classes where you are restricted on power the hull problems are more evident. So keeping the hulls competative is easy allow more power to older boats or multispeeds or weight advantage.
OK, Buzzi killed "a" class. It needed to evolve into a safer class. Somethings need to die in order to progress. I think the canopys are under designed and in need of a serious redesign to make them safer. They are a good wind deflector at best. Just tear along the dotted line.
Just think if these current thoughts were around when the first cat was layed up. We would still be looking at magnums and scarabs ect.....
Back to Evolution, is it a big word or a statement for the future?
pat W
2 of the 5 LLC owners were our customers. There were some major players involved on the tech commitee and a group of newcomers (racers) that were afraid that their investment was for nothing because they had the wrong package. They were easily swayed with big words like Parity were thrown around and Spec boats , hulls , props , ect....could make them champions. They could not throw out the engine builders right away because they were giving money(sponsors). That was only tried recently. The props were next. Very systematic.
We are a very small company and we cannot afford to support a series, only assist our customers.
Multispeeds,
They can help equalize the difference between boats now and reduce cost on propellers. It makes the boat safer and helps with missing the prop selection. Easier on the motor, i.e. getting on plane, abilty to set rpm range for a state ect...
We have run them in various configurations and complexity. The early boxes were on carburated motors then efi then diesel. Now we are making multispeed drop boxes in-line (input / output)2 - 6 speeds. We run a separate trans controller so we can shift just about every type of motor. Turbines are tough but we think we can do that too.
The cost of a gearset $750 per trans. Do it yourself labor. Try that with a #6 drive ratio change, you fill in the amount. Then cost a prop.
If everyone has it you can restrict the amount of gears or ratio or pitch of prop to equalize the competition.
SCL, early boats suffered from bravo drives late boats suffer from cost of drive units and need for a new hull to be competative. The latest motors are better than early ones. The latest boat is now the winner. I guess there was no advantage knowing everyones set-up, prop dia and pitch, gear ratio, drive height, driveshaft length, weight dry and wet..... must be talent. It would be cool to see a rudder boat with 8100's(496's) and multispeeds. What then......diversity, competition, cost reduction safety. I like driving rudder boats.
The hull over time accumulates water and damage. People overwash the hulls on the inside. They are not sealed. I drilled into the transom of Don Q once to mount a speedo and it peed out the hole for 15 minutes. They delam warp in the sun ect.. In classes where you are restricted on power the hull problems are more evident. So keeping the hulls competative is easy allow more power to older boats or multispeeds or weight advantage.
OK, Buzzi killed "a" class. It needed to evolve into a safer class. Somethings need to die in order to progress. I think the canopys are under designed and in need of a serious redesign to make them safer. They are a good wind deflector at best. Just tear along the dotted line.
Just think if these current thoughts were around when the first cat was layed up. We would still be looking at magnums and scarabs ect.....
Back to Evolution, is it a big word or a statement for the future?
pat W
Last edited by shifter; 08-31-2007 at 02:20 AM. Reason: spelling
08-31-2007, 12:50 PM
#19
arneson-industries.com
Offshoreonly Advertiser
Saying that Rudders should not be allowed as Mercury does not make them is not a valid nor smart outlook.
OSS is Mercury ONLY, so why would/could/should anyone else want to step in and spend $$ that would not revert to sales? Mercury giving back to the racers is only right as the racers have no choice in the matter in the first place and it is a payback for allowing it to be that way and actually in some ways makes people want to belive it is the better this way.
This all started well before OSS where Mercury gained an exclusive behind closed doors and that mentality went to the OSS as well.
Pat has valid points, most racers will agree BUT no one wants to do anything other than Merc.
This is a problematic symptom of American Racing.
OSS is Mercury ONLY, so why would/could/should anyone else want to step in and spend $$ that would not revert to sales? Mercury giving back to the racers is only right as the racers have no choice in the matter in the first place and it is a payback for allowing it to be that way and actually in some ways makes people want to belive it is the better this way.
This all started well before OSS where Mercury gained an exclusive behind closed doors and that mentality went to the OSS as well.
Pat has valid points, most racers will agree BUT no one wants to do anything other than Merc.
This is a problematic symptom of American Racing.
08-31-2007, 04:19 PM
#20
arneson-industries.com
Offshoreonly Advertiser
The racers in fact pay for their equipment. Contention $$ are not enough to pay for the equipment even if the racer won every race. Mercury also voids any of the items from warranty if they were raced.
The beauty of P1 Racing is that it does not rely upon a single manufacturer. They are a bunch of independent racers racing what they think is the best package available to them and this is what makes for greeat competition.
Class 1 does not have the problems that America has, rather they are facing a technology situation whereby the series is becoming cost prohibitive and the field is shrinking. Pro V never got off the ground.
