Sean, what would you do with P6??

I don't see it as an OPA vs SBI thing, I see it as OPA only has the class 1-6 format, they have spent much more time perfecting (tweaking) the class series and rules, I don't see how you can do better than the Tracking System OPA is using now. Just my .02

Eddie

I dont think you guys should worry too much about changing your speeds / rules. The reason I say this is because I doubt very much that many OPA teams are goin to travel to Florida to run the SBI races and / or pay all the fees associated with them. The two main reasons OPA is very popular with its teams, is affordability and somewhat close proximity to home. OH, and thirdly a decent purse. Nothin against SBI, but for the same reason we dont see SBI teams venturing out of Florida to OPA races, most OPA teams dont have the luxury of time or expense to venture to Florida. Im sure some teams will make an effort to do a few races either way, but for now, I would say let the teams adapt to the current rules with the respective organizations. For the last couple of years we have heard some SBI teams were going to support OPA races and you never did. I also remember many OPA teams doing most of the SBI schedule. So, lets just address that issue when we come to it. You have rules that seem to work for you as does OPA. This is just my opinion, I dont speak on behalf of OPA. Smitty may have a different view on this, to give everyone a fair shake and thats great. I just dont think that its worth the effort until a significant amount of teams commit. SBI has a huge schedule this year. I dont see how you guys will be able to squeeze in OPA races with your schedule. If you can do that you have my respect.

Bruce,
I think the number one reason for the speed alignment would be to get us together for the Worlds. If we can do a couple of races at each others events thats even better. It's one small step for man, a giant leap for racekind. I think I'll patent that.
Louie

I think Bruce has a point. I don't think it's that folks refuse to support one organization or the other, but I think it has to do with proximity. I race SBI because our team is based in Florida...it would be that much more expense to get up north for the OPA races. Plus, the OPA guys have their boats set-up best for their speeds, just as our boats are set-up for SBI speeds.

I understand there may have been an initiative to have some joint races, using the rules of the hosting organization. But if nothing else, it's possible during these joint races to come up with a set of rules that "meet in the middle". Each organization keep their speed verification equipment and number system, but have the speeds meet in the middle. If we can then "tweak" these rules through the joint races, then maybe we can develop a set of rules for all organizations, and then push toward unification.

Sean

Brad,

If I was "King for a Day", after re-reading this post, the post in the OPA section and some more thought, I'd go back to the old APBA top speeds: P1=110, P2=100, P3=90, P4=80 and P5=70. P5 would remain 28 foot and under single engine in order to roll the OPA Class 6 guys into it. From what I've read and seen in the OPA section, those guys should not have any problem getting another 5 mph out of their boats. P4 should be able to accommodate the former F1 boats that are currently in the OPA Class 5. It's a bigger step down for the OPA guys than the SBI guys, but it accommodates P6, reduces the classes and ideally puts more boats in the respective classes. I realize the resistance to this change is that it's most likely gonna cost all the teams something (i.e. props). But a least it costs everyone something, instead of focusing on just one group.

I also think SBI should use the OPA numbering system and drop the "P"...I supported that change in 2005 but did not get much support from the other SBI owners at the time.

As far as the speed verification system, I like SBI using the Garmin GPS because I can also use it in testing to download and "review the game tape" right off the GPS. I don't think the OPA system gives you that option, but I could be wrong. Both systems have proven effective...let's pick one.

The bottom line, it really seems like the owners in both SBI and OPA are happy with where things are. In order for it to change, we may need the "Kings" to agree on the common ground and then put it into "law". The problem with that, both SBI and OPA allow the owners to make the decisions and that is contrary to what we have built to this day.

So how do we fix this? The Kings need to agree we want common laws. The owners can come up with a proposal that can work with both groups (i.e. my suggestions above). Then each put it to the owners for a vote. "Weighted" majority wins (I say "weighted" majority wins since OPA membership is greater than SBI, so they could easily take the majority in their favor without necessarily considering the good of the sport, but instead what works best for them as an individual...kind of on the concept of Electoral votes).

We implement the new speeds, numbering and speed verification system at a specified season start (i.e. 2008 or 2009...whenever it's OPA's 3 year rule making anniversary).

BTW...although I agreed with Bruce ideally on why the racers race where they do, I still believe we need to standardize the rules regardless. Us "P" racers are unsually on extremely tight budgets, and not having to swap out my vinyl if I wanted to race with OPA keeps money in my pocket and gives me the opportunity to race where ever I want, with who ever I want without having to modify my boat. That will at least open the door a little wider between SBI and OPA.

After we get the rules standardized, we need to tackle the entry fees. I don't think anyone has a problem with equipment and membership fees, but I wouldn't want to pay an SBI entry fee if I was an OPA guy. But at the same time, it's not fair to agree that the OPA guys don't have to pay SBI entry fees, yet the SBI guys do at an SBI race. Not knowing what the SBI entry fees are used for, I really can't recommend a fix at this time. Maybe someone from OPA can chime in and tell us how they are able to do without entry fees and still get the big purses.

BTW...I'm tired of hearing "why should we change if the other group hasn't committed to any our our races". It's attitudes like that that will keep us from ever having a standardized set of rules and will only do one thing...keep us from any unification in the future.

Sean

"Maybe someone from OPA can chime in and tell us how they are able to do without entry fees and still get the big purses."

I believe it is because the cities pay for the show. Also OPA is not run for profit.

Sean,

That is one of most intellegent and well tought out post I've seen on this board in a long time....perhaps ever.

Ken Doyle

It's a fact OPA has a lot of great people volunteering there time and money. And races are site sponsored. This might be one of the biggest stumbling blocks in the mix. This is JC's livelyhood, he makes his living promoting races and has done an excellent job for many years. This to me is the biggest divider, not the speeds. Compromise is the word of the day.

Ok, you caught me. I have to say, the board is loaded with some great debates. This is the first time I have really enjoyed reading this forum. Congratulations to all of you. It shows how serious you all are about this sport of ours. Most of what is going on is productive. You know, I thank you for the compliments in ref to OPA. Yes it is true the sites support us. However our budget is far below that of the other groups. How do you say, Shoestring. The problem we saw in Offshore was. You cant get the boats without the money, and you cant get the money without the boats. We decided the hell with the money, we need boats. Thus out went the fees. With the increased boat counts, the money is coming much easier. Hence growth. Not in leaps and bounds, but steady. It has been the effort of many good people. The problem with OPA and SBI rules being different, lies with me. We were always aligned very closely with SBI. The fact that we only run the 6 classes, made it very important for us to get it right. SBI runs many more classes than we do, so the focus is not as strong on the P Class. In order to accomodate our teams changes were made on our end to the rules. We found many of the boats were very capable of running over their index, and capable of breaking out. To avoid having everyone sitting on their limiter all day, we bumped the speeds. And even at that we have to watch the boats very closely. I have to ask, I saw in the results from KW, a lot of breakouts. Leads me to believe your boats are faster than you think. In OPA, out of the entire season, we only had three breakouts, by less than 5 tenths of a mile per hour. Not only do we use the GPS, but the main tool is the prop calc, and limiter. We also run the boats. Either before or after the race. Any team can protest any boat, and we will run it. It has proven to be very competitive. I am sure we can work something out. I'll get on it. Sean, your ref to the KINGS, John and I have always had a great relationship. One that lasts even until this day. Rest assured neither one of us will stand between what the racers want. Bruce is right. The distance between the two organizations keeps the racers local. That was the plan. SBI always had the south covered, we wanted to bring back the north. Thanks to our dedicated teams we are back. I hope to race together, we have done it with the OSS, and it was great to see all the boats, and meet some great people. I know our guys had a blast. Looking forward to 07. Smitty