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Programmers and Warranty

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Old 09-16-2008, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by jonyb View Post
Somebody tries to rip off stealerships? They should be so ashamed trying to get over on the dealer. The dealer would never screw anyone over!
Dealer has nothing to do with it. It's the manufacturer. And the last time I looked, someone else doing something wrong is no excuse for you to do the same. I hope you're not passing this sort of thinking along to kids...

Dealers are pretty much out of the loop on toasted engine claims. Nothing gets covered without a factory tech rep looking at it. And, in light of many millions in claims on damaged engines, they've gotten really good at it.

Lastly, I own 6 different Ford 6.0 trucks. Two personal vehicles and 4 shop trucks. All of them are absolutely stock. With a maximum towing load on them, I've never once felt the need to have more power. I've towed my boats at interstate speeds through the Appalachian mountains and never once had the pedal down on the floor. In fact, on the really looong hills, I felt myself backing out a bit- over concern for the transmission. On level ground I'm sure I could go way faster than would be even remotely safe.

So why do you need a tuner?
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Old 09-16-2008, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris Sunkin View Post
Dealer has nothing to do with it. It's the manufacturer. And the last time I looked, someone else doing something wrong is no excuse for you to do the same. I hope you're not passing this sort of thinking along to kids...

Dealers are pretty much out of the loop on toasted engine claims. Nothing gets covered without a factory tech rep looking at it. And, in light of many millions in claims on damaged engines, they've gotten really good at it.

Lastly, I own 6 different Ford 6.0 trucks. Two personal vehicles and 4 shop trucks. All of them are absolutely stock. With a maximum towing load on them, I've never once felt the need to have more power. I've towed my boats at interstate speeds through the Appalachian mountains and never once had the pedal down on the floor. In fact, on the really looong hills, I felt myself backing out a bit- over concern for the transmission. On level ground I'm sure I could go way faster than would be even remotely safe.

So why do you need a tuner?
When your empty/unladen and want to blow someones doors off!
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Old 09-16-2008, 09:03 AM
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I had one on my 04 duramax and surprised a few people.. even an m3..
Never had any warranty issues though.
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Old 09-16-2008, 09:33 AM
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Warranty law is written such that the manufacturer cannot deny a warranty claim unless the issue is caused by the addition of the aftermarket part. The burden of proof is on them. You may have to sue them to get to that point, but ultimately the burden of proof is on them. If they can then show conclusively that the programmer caused whatever failure occurred, they can legally deny the warranty claim, not void the warranty.

Most dealership service personnel, and upper management will probably say screw you and you'll have to fight for some time, but in the end you may win.
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Old 09-16-2008, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by hillbilly24 View Post
This is why people who have legit problems are having trouble getting warranty coverage. Why do people do this sh!t? If you do install a programer and have a problem and then pull one over the dealers head and get them to cover it it is called theft. The whole programmer thing has gotten out of hand on these diesels and it had cost the manufacturers ALOT of money in the last few years. This sh!t should follow under the same laws as insurance fraud if you ask me, it is the same thing. The whole "it's OK to hoodwink the big boys" thing is a steaming pile of sh!t. If you want to run a programmer and make more power you need to just accept that you have invalidated your warranty and you now need to step up and pay for any damages that occur.
Amen. I see this lack of personal accountability all the time and I wonder where the hell our values have gone in the last few decades. Everyone pays for this type of behavior in the end through increased prices for services and goods.
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Old 09-16-2008, 03:14 PM
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the edge i have on my 6.0 psd never showed a footprint when it was at the dealer for updates and reflash
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Old 09-16-2008, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by jayhawk261 View Post
Warranty law is written such that the manufacturer cannot deny a warranty claim unless the issue is caused by the addition of the aftermarket part. The burden of proof is on them. You may have to sue them to get to that point, but ultimately the burden of proof is on them. If they can then show conclusively that the programmer caused whatever failure occurred, they can legally deny the warranty claim, not void the warranty.

Most dealership service personnel, and upper management will probably say screw you and you'll have to fight for some time, but in the end you may win.
The burden of proof???? The customer will have to prove that the "enhancement " did no damage. This takes time and money. You are correct in regards to the Magnuson
Moss Act. The only problem is any "enhancement" that increases the factory level of performance can be seen as a direct cause of failure. Sure, a power window motor is not going to fall under this rule, but you can sure bet that any drivetrain related part will.


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Old 09-16-2008, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by mwdill View Post
the edge i have on my 6.0 psd never showed a footprint when it was at the dealer for updates and reflash
Just b/c they werent looking for one doesnt mean its not there. I would be cautious if you are counting on the warranty for anything above and beyond the little stuff that most people experience.......these vehicles operate under very strick tolerances and anything above and beyond those are usually logged.
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Old 09-16-2008, 05:07 PM
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As told to me by a retired powertrain controls engineer at Ford. After spending millions of dollars on blown up engines and transmissions on the powerstroke equipped vehicles, Ford became very suspicious of aftermarket "tuning devices". They instructed the engineers to create a bullet proof way to determine if the controllers software had been modified in any way and this is what they came up with.

I am prerry sure GM uses a similiar idea.

The powertrain controllers have a cute little sub routine in their software. When a factory program is uploaded to the controller, this subroutine generates a random PAIR of numbers. It attaches one number to the contoler monitor software and the other to the uploaded program. IF an aftermarket program is dumped into the controller, the sub routine generates a new number to attach to the uploaded program but NOT the monitor software. The two numbers now do not match and the controller notes this. When a dealer scans the controller, they can identify that the numbers do not match and can without fail tell you the program was modified from original. Blow up a motor, tranny or fuel system and you can bet the manufacturer will want to see the data from the controller monitor. Then, its very easy to state that you, the consumer modified the vehicle and caused any damages to components that were designed and built to operate ONLY with factory programming. Very easy for them to prove and very hard for you to disprove. That and they can probably afford WAY better lawyers than most people can.
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Old 09-16-2008, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by mwdill View Post
the edge i have on my 6.0 psd never showed a footprint when it was at the dealer for updates and reflash
It has nothing to do with what you can get away with, it has to do with what is right. When you payed for your vehicle a warranty was included in the purchase price and you may have even opted to purchase an extended warranty at an additional cost to you. Either way that addition cost or built in cost in the price of the vehicle was calculated based on failure rates and trends that were observed in stock vehicles. When you get them to cover something once you have installed a tuner you are STEALING, it is not right and it is illegal. This entire debate is basically over "what can I get away with" and that in itself is wrong.
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