My boat was about 60% broken as far as the length of the rubrail. The other 4 were older and 100% seperated. All the photos were pre repair. I have no photos of the after repair seam. My boat is here at the house. next week I could take some afters from inside the gunnell. It looks like a PB&J sandwich with the jelly squeezing out from between the bread... Oh the overlap is about 1" to 1.5". I think this is plenty of surface area to bond

From the Fountain website,This is posted only as a point of information.Not trying to turn this into a brand battle.


------------------------------------------------------------------------


Additionally, we are one of the few boat builders that takes the time to bond the deck and hull together with fiberglass as part of our six-step bonding process to create a unitized construction that is more durable and less likely to flex and break. Fountain's lamination schedules and techniques have been fine-tuned using the experience we've gained from building both race and pleasure boats for over 20 years.

Never hooked and rolled my formula...nuf said

Thank you, I would like to look up the specification sheet for the specific product used, so it would be nice to know which one it is ?

Dave you may have almost made a beleiver out of me for using the plexus over the 5200. What I am still trying to wrap my hands around is how to you know how much to "squeeze" the rub rail? It sounds like you can not just tighten the bolts down tight? Did you use some sort of spacer, or is there something built into the Plexus to keep you from squeezing otu to much? Do you know how long the work time it is?

I am thinking about writing Formula asking if the is anything we can use to fill possible gaps in the seal.While I do not feel my boat has this problem I still may pull my rubrail and inspect.

different reference sources say anything from .01 to .05. Which means that you would probably have to talk to Plexus themselves to find the exact minimum for the type you are using. I'm sure there is some math to come up with the uncompressed amount that will equal "X" compressed amount. 2 test pieces bolted together will give you a number. Formula and/or Plexus has to have a ratio.

I'm with you on doing this repair. If according to these boats, Formula didn't get it right with the hull/deck apart, I don't know how you get it right with them wedged apart.

Where did you get those number Z5? The Plexus application specification example I showed had 6mm maximum to 1.2mm minumum (basically 1/4" max to a 3/64" minumum).

Ratios.......are you talking about the working time/temp ratio? It talks about temperature, surface prep, estimated working times, product shelf life, clamping and control samples.

Interesting, but depending upon the temperature of the factory, I see Formula having a hard time putting sufficent Plexus on the area (one single bead doesn't seem suffice to me), then lower the deck on the hull, get all the hardware in and clamp it down (but not too much) before the Plexus is beyond the "working time".

We need to know which product is used to be sure we are talking about apples or ?????? Dave......make that call! :)

Ma 425

Tech data sheet: http://www.itwplexus.com/UserFiles/File/tds/6.pdf

According to note 7 it says: For optimal bond gaps 0.03 inch (0.75 mm) is recommended. Below these values, consult with an ITW Plexus representative.

I converted the 1.2mm to inches. its .047 minimum(on your chart) in answer to Audiofn's question. same number you have for minimum (3/64)

I saw smaller gaps listed here
http://www.itwplexus.com/UserFiles/F...ves_1.2009.pdf


I was talking about a ration of how thick you had to apply it to get the final minimum thickness after it was clamped. for example. a 1/2 wide bead that is 1/2 inch hig compresses to "x". Plexus and/or Formula needed to know this to apply it.


If 425 is what Formula uses in the factory, according to the data sheet at 68 degrees, it has 60-70 minutes work time. Colder is longer. I have no idea how long it takes to run a bead around a 38 foot boat, lower the deck and tq the bolts. I would guess that an hour would be pushing it. Calibrated air guns that give "X" Tq would set the gap by their tightness, but I agree, it does seem like a lot to do in a short period of time. (course if they are doing it at 50*, they have 2 hours, and that seems doable)

I don't know what 1 bead will or won't do. I've only ever seen the pictures/video that I assume you have of Formula doing it. I would think that they and Plexus came up with the correct amount. Plexus uses Formula on their web site as a case study in how to use it, so I don't think Formula would advertise pictures to the world with the wrong amount being used.

I just realized that Plexus corporate offices in the states is about 10 min from my shop (Danvers, MA). Maybe I will stop in and see if I can get some info that concerns me about using the product resolved....

I meant more specifically.....the 0.010..........waaaaaay too thin.

I was going by the link that I found, which is a plexus link.

Couple of thoughts,if plexus only has a 60 minute work time that could explain why this problem is more common on 382's less common on 353's and so far no one has spoken up on a 292. I also thing it has to do with the length of the bow,but work time could be a factor.

I have been to two boat factories Pantera and Fountain the side of a hull before it is mated to a deck is not that strong.If it is important for the plexus to be even in thickness I do not see this happening.Reason being as I stated before the hull sides are very flexible before they are mated to the deck.The bolts will compress the plexus of course but will be unable to properly compress the Plexus for the entire 18 inches before the next bolt.

Is temperature because of work time of Plexus a factor?If so are boats made in the summer more prone to failure?

I would sure think so. Look at the PDF that Nort posted which has work times. If its 80* in that building they have very little time.

Formula does not use the bolts & nuts to compress the joint. There is a set of assembly screws that are removed from the joint after the plex is cured. It looks like #6 or #8 screw holes that are used to draw together the joint. I think the 1/4 20's are installed after the joint is cured. I think with 4 guys, a 55 gal drum of plex, a crane and a air gun they would have plenty of work time. The deck would be pre fitted and a few inches above the hull. It probably would take 5 minutes to wrap the seam with plex, the deck would be lowered into position with a crane. Two or three guys would install the assembly screws and pull the joint together and its done. When it is cured the assembly screws are pulled, the bolts installed and then the rail. If anyone from Formula is following this tell me if this is not the case??

If thats the case, then, I'd agree they could do that quickly. All the static pictures I have seen of them putting the Plexus on shows the deck right above the hull waiting to be dropped.

I didn't see any extra screw holes in your boat. Did I just miss them?

Ok then why did it not hold,Was it just assembly error as Formula kinda agreed or something else?

They probabally install the thru bolts in the same holes as the assembly screw holes.

As far as temperture and shorter cure times, the summer built boats thought is very interesting. Unless Formula comes out and discloses all the info on the subject, its going to be hard to pinpoint the exact cause.

Thickness and temperture are probabally at the top of the list though. Dont know how the factory's climate is controlled?

Some build dates on known boats couldnt hurt.


LE

This would make sense. Have the holes in the deck pre drilled, and then ram the screws into the hull. Cure the Plexuse and then switch the screws for the bolts.


The summer/winter should apply to the fiberglass lay up of the boats too. I would have to think that Formula/Plexus have it figured out as to how much time to get it put together.

...........yes, but maybe not for the first 6-7 years. :D

Do you have a list of the years that SCOPE has had issues with? I thought you said it was a bunch, but I don't remember ever seeing the years listed.

http://www.kawasaki.com/Products/Pro...scid=23&id=485


Found this by accident,If you don't want to watch the whole thing F/F to 4:50.The hull deck sealant is put on by a robot in a larger amount and much more evenly than the chalking gun in the Formula video.There is to much room for human error the way Formula does it IMO.

This thread is for the most part a conversation among Formula owners.I am sure Formula is aware of this thread.It is my hope that they will provide some technical impute on how to properly inspect our boats.

That is some great automation that Kawi has. less than 2.5 hrs to build it. I know some jet ski mechanics that would kill to be able to pull the deck to work on those.

This is a pretty serious and informative thread. Can we please keep on topic. Thanks guys. Jeff

nothing personal but i think you guys are grasping at straws here...there have been no reported incidents, no catastrophic failures, and no injuries.

formula produces hundreds if not thousands of boats a year using the same procedure and protocol on all models. to me it would seem as though if there were really a problem, it would be an epidemic of epic proportions. if there is an issue, i fail to see it. sorry.

my summary: the intent of this thread seems to be two fold. On one side, members are trying to figure out if a real bonding issue exists between deck and hull. Seems doubtful. No real proof or examples of such events. Issues seem very isolated.

The second fold which seems to be at the heart of this thread...is people are trying to create personal vendettas against Formula for no reason. They think Formula owes them something. One poster is trying to seek warranty claims years after the event. Formula offered a percentage of the fix but that wasnt good enough. The manufacturer has nothing to hide and has been very open about the steps involved in creating the bond. Not sure what else there is to discuss.

Please get the thread back on topic.
 

Yep.......you really read this thread closely! LOL :D :drink::drink:

I don't think you need a robot to add the Plexus, and I am not sure we know in detail what Formula does.

But you need an operating procedure for how the job of bonding the deck to the hull should be performed, and the production staff needs to be trained and understand the procedure and the constraints.

Low volume boat production does have a lot of manual labor involved, compared to high volume car production, but it is still possible to deliver a high quality product.

Has anybody actually seen the Formula production at the factory, and in particular the procedure for how the deck is attached to the hull ?

I am going to have to disagree with you while no one has been killed there have been hull separations discovered while underway.And yes Formula uses the same hull/deck mounting procedure on all of its boats,but five(?) have had issues.Are they the only ones or are there others out there undiscovered.We don't know however I suspect that there are at least quiet a few that while not separated are not sealed properly.This would explain why there are a high number of Formula water in cabin threads.
We,high performance boaters tend to use our boats more and run them harder than the average boater.A higher group would be fishermen but Formula does not make center consoles.But my point is we will see failure first.Were these guys running hard in the ocean,probably but Formula marketed the Fastech to do this and made many videos of there boats running in the ocean at speed.

But the real issue here is The Plexus should be stronger than the fiberglass.Had the fiberglass broke it would be different...it didn't.

I'll get a complete list together for you of the SCOPE Five, but this is what I know so far:

1ea 2000
1ea 2001
1ea 2005


Thank you for getting the thread back on topic!

I just pulled 2 sections of the rail off my 311 and so far I have the same problem, total hull seperation from the deck joint. From earlier in the thread it looks like Formula was not using Plexus on the 311's. I am going to call Plexus up today and try and talk to the techs about if their product is a good match for my situation. My friend that builds boats said he is moving away from Plexus because it is so hard to deal with. He said when it works there is nothing better, when it does not work it fails completely. Maybe the problem is not so much with Formula but Plexus?

I checked mine this weekend and everything looks good. Hope it stays that way.

Shouldn't Formula cover the 2005 under the 10 year warranty?

Jon, could you please post a picture of what the separation looks like? I'm sure it's something that you either know or don't know when you see it, but just in case...
Thanks, and sorry to hear you've got the issue, too.

~Christine

how can it be the plexus???when other manf. use it also,,,now it could to the time factor they take before the hull in set down and screwd in

Pre Fastech, thye used Arogrip. The ads claim the exact same thing as Plexus, that it bonds the material with a chemical bond stronger than the glass is.

Expensive date: Thanks for the message and heads up.

Zone5: Thanks for a rational scrupulous approach.

PhantomChaos: Thanks for the perserverance and communication. I hope this whole experience will be for the betterment of all aspects involved and not ladden with any personal issues or agendas on part of all.



I drove an 06 382 with 525/ITS (it used to be in the classifieds here) and the concerns that hit my radar then were the loose steering wheel and drives. The steering wheel flopped like the nut was loose, maybe cracked, and the drives flopped up and down like celery sticks were cracked on a Bravo. My point mentioning this is that this issue is definately on my radar screen now because all the other issues were, as I believe after watching the owner drive it too, a result of the boat pounding. If it were pounded hard enough for these symptoms then the hull issue in question here is absolutely subject too.

I am soooooo glad to know about this as I don't want to buy a project boat.

The 07 382 with 700/NXT's that I recently posted is an interest for the chargers, I love chargers:kiss:, which make my "sticker peck out" :lolhit: but the price is a problem of marketing and bad economy. That power in a staggered mounting delivers a lot more all around performance which pulls me in a different direction than I thought I could ever go in but live and learn.:grinser010:

I'm watching this thread intently so please carry on. :grinser010:

Oh yea, the video on Post #115 is great with the sound up loud! And from 10 to 11 min the black boat is leaned back on the drives pretty hard which seems to illustrate the point of "enthusiastic marketing" that suggests the hull can take it. :eek:

Dave.....was is user error? :D LOL

1ea 1999
1ea 2000
2ea 2001
1ea 2005