Rippem

considering the source I knew exactly what he meant.

Audiofn

Well looks like I am dealing with the exact same issue. I decided after looking at this thread to do some more looking around on my boat. Sure enough after being told what to check I can say I clearly am dealing with the exact same issue. One side seems OK the other is a total delimitation of the liner from the bottom of the hull. I can now say knowing what to look for it is easy to spot. Just go under the hull on the trailer or stands or what ever and push up on the bottom of the hull under the engine bay. You can also nock around on the bottom and look for a hallow spot. Mine was easy to tell doing both tests. The port side is way worse then the starboard side. :-(

Audiofn

Once I gave the bilge a good bath this is what I found. If you look close behind the engine mount and in front of the engine mount there are some fairly substantial cracks. The second picture shows the starboard side. That side seems to be MUCH better but there are still a large number of hair line cracks. [ATTACH=CONFIG]552305[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]552306[/ATTACH]

glassdave

iTrader: (1)

sorry to get to the party late I suspect this will be a very large and informative thread its also surprising the amount of calls and PM's i have received concerning liner issues in other Fastechs. I will be organizing some things shortly and adding as we go and will keep close to the thread if anyone has any questions. Over the years i have been aware of Formulas liner issues and have seen many levels of the problem from fully blown out liners to minor isolated issues. Early on they had problems with the Plexus joints that as far as i can tell were caused by to thick a bond line or poor placement. Chris's boat was, what i thought, very unique in that all the bonds were perfect throughout the boat but had some sort of issue within the structure of the bilge liner. Now on first inspection all joints were found to be solid and proper but there was definitely some shifting going on as there was significant stressing visible on the boats running surface and upon closer inspection there were several previous attempts to repair damage to the liner telling me something between or around those two surfaces was to blame. Thats when i got out the saw What i found was the liner was not set deep enough during assembly to make contact with the inside of the hulls running surface thereby letting the entire hull under the engine liner basically "float", this surface is not cored and is probably only a few layers thick and requires a secondary support (core, liner, etc). The liner was fully half to three quarter of an inch away from its intended (engineered) location, flush to the running surface. At some point an attempt (a very poor one) was made to fill the void with Plexus by drilling multiple two inch holes and injecting filler in to take up the gap. Not only did this not correct it but it caused several hard spots because of the inconsistent coverage, heck many of the beads of plexus just laid on the bottom surface never even touching the liner (wtf?) I originally thought maybe this was a unique isolated "fix" but am now hearing of other owners having similar issues in boats having the tell tale plugs in the liner. Chatted with Jon (AudioFN) and his boat is almost identical in every way right down to stress location. I will say this though, apart from the liner placement issue this Formula is one incredibly well built and well thought out boat. Quality is very high and rigging and design are incredibly good for a production style boat (it rivals many customs I've seen). The problems with the liners were confined to early boats and as soon as they realized the problem i believe it was corrected in production. I actually believe the problem stemmed from possibly a discontinuity between engineering and production implementation, its sometimes difficult to get the work force to understand the importance of certain details. I honestly think if the cavity had been foam filled the problem would not exist. They really are fantastic boats and i would not hesitate to own one. Chris' boat in particular is one of the nicest boats i have had in my shop (awesome job Mr. Powell ). I have to organize some stuff but i will be adding more in the next few days. Oh . . . and if you have one of these . . . . it can be fixed for good . . . its only fiberglass

Audiofn

Dave I think that the best thing that can come out of this thread is for people to not only be informed that this problem MAY exist in their boats or boats that they are buying, as well as what is the best way to go about fixing it if they do run into the problem and what works for a repair. I will tell you right now if I had not had the time to talk to you about it I would be panicking right now not knowing the exact structure of the boat. Since you cut it open I don't have to do that myself (hopefully). Dave is going about this the correct way IMO but is there another way that will be strong and function as well with out as much "cutting" and time. I have an appointment with a structural guy on Wednesday to take a look as well as I have had great conversations with Dave about the issue. He and I are going to stay in close contact as we both rip into these things and put our collective heads together. If I can find ways to get foam into the void that is between the liner and the hull that is the method that I will be trying. I guess worst case is that if fails I will be doing what Dave is now? I don't think it will fail however as long as I can get a 100% fill. IMO it will be WAY stronger then it ever was adding very little weight. The Plexus repair that was done at the factory on what seems like all these boats did last a full almost 15 years on these two boats before it failed. IMO the problem is the plexus and the very very short work time and the tight tolerances that need to be adhered to while using it. You only have like 7 min of work time. That is 7 min to lay out your beads, drop in the liner and get a gap of 1-3MM. Just seems like a LOT to ask of a production team. The good news as Dave pointed out it is just fiberglass and it CAN BE FIXED. Now lets see how these two boats get fixed and see how they last after. :-)

badmonkey

Jon, (Audiofn), Very sorry to hear that you also are having similar issues with your boat. I do not feel that coming up with any type of mediocre repair by filling in the gaps is the best bet. Now I am no expert but without being able to physically see I would be very hesitant. Knowing what Dave has gone thru on my boat...(the cutting etc etc.) is an ugly thought but there is no doubt that our boat will NEVER have further issues with these problems....JUST MY $0.02. I am very pleased that we as a group are all able to benefit from this thread. Hate being the Ginny pig but everything happens for a reason. The more I keep hearing of these similar issues in other boats the more Formula better get involved as this is clearly not just ONE isolated issue. Thanks Jon for being involved. Hopefully we both are repaired soon and enjoying our great boats this summer without concerns.

Chris

rak rua

If it was a car, the manufacturer would be forced to do a recall. Would there be a location to cut an inspection hole to see under the liner and find out if your boat may be effected? After inspection, fit a small bilge hatch for anyone to see that the boat is fine.

With so many similar boats out on the water, I'm sure lots of owners and prospective buyers would be wondering...

RR

Audiofn

IMO RAK RUA, This is not really up to Formula to make these repairs. The boats are at this point in time OLD. You would never see a car manufacturer do a recall on a car that is 15 years old, it would never happen. It sucks that we have to go through this, and we never should have to go through this, and one could argue that Formula knew about the problems they have due to the repairs that these boats all have (if you have the plastic plugs in the floor Formula was looking to see if you had the problem and so far every 353 engine bay bottom that I have seen has the holes). The reality is that I am not looking for Formula to take are of this I am looking to let others know about the potential for this issue and make sure they check to see if their boat has the same problems and if it does get it fixed before they have a failure.

Audiofn

Chris: No doubt the way that Dave it going after this is the BEST way to make sure you are 100%. That does not mean it is the only solid fix. IMO IF I can get assurance of filling the ENTIRE void with expanding foam this will be JUST as strong as your repair. The concern and what I have to make sure is that I have a 100% fill, but that is no different then what Dave is doing? We need there to be no void! The expanding foam that I will be using is NOT what you put around windows or comes out of a spray can. This is going to be either 8 or 16 pound foam. 16 pound foam can be hit with a hammer and not dent it. The holding power is up over 500PSI so stronger then polyester at around 250psi and just a little weaker then Vynnle Ester at 700PSI. The compression is the concern and getting the total fill. That is why I need to get some more research done. It is probably not much cheaper then your repair as the cost of the material is going to be around 500 bucks or more but certainly could be a lot faster?

rak rua

Understand fully, would be hard to blame Formula for a build issue that long ago but it would be nice if owners were guided through a simple step by step way to check their boat and be confident they could show it to other people.

I feel a bit sorry for you guys with the problem, I guess it's just something you would never have imagined, regardless of the boats age.

You have the right attitude towards the situation, get it fixed and move on.

RR