Great Moments in Cat History
10-10-2001 | 09:05 PM
#201
Registered
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,174
Likes: 5
From: Flemington, N.J. U.S.A
T2x, Since this is a history lesson ,I would like some input on my boat if you would . It is a 1988 39' Express cat .almost 12'wide ,heavy , seats 9 easy,has a large cabin ,has twin 1000's with huber trans, Arnesons (older1600 series)turning 17 1/2 x32 mercury props .Suposed to run 120+.(It is new to me so I have only been about 115 at about 4500-4700rpms.)
It is definatly a comprimize boat. But to me it is an OK comprimize. Big cabin ,lots of seeting ,fast enough, and rides like a dream! I understand this boat (company) has a shady past of sorts .Different names such as Image express, Express cat ,and ocean express. All the same boat......
On another note ,it "spins in" (props)the drives are set up to only turn one way and has port motor turning oposite rotation .Is this worth the work to switch everything over (side to side ) to try running props out ? Or just drive it like it was ment to be ?A pleasure boat ! It's worked for 13 years now ? And I'm not trying to be a racer .Just enjoying a nice cruise speed !The drives are fixed with no hydraulic trim (YET). It is set up nice though .No cavitation ,no porpoising and is very stable at high speeds (After bleeding hydraulic steerring
).
I love your input in all your posts . Just say it like it is
Thanks for any history you can give !
[ 10-10-2001: Message edited by: boot ]
It is definatly a comprimize boat. But to me it is an OK comprimize. Big cabin ,lots of seeting ,fast enough, and rides like a dream! I understand this boat (company) has a shady past of sorts .Different names such as Image express, Express cat ,and ocean express. All the same boat......
On another note ,it "spins in" (props)the drives are set up to only turn one way and has port motor turning oposite rotation .Is this worth the work to switch everything over (side to side ) to try running props out ? Or just drive it like it was ment to be ?A pleasure boat ! It's worked for 13 years now ? And I'm not trying to be a racer .Just enjoying a nice cruise speed !The drives are fixed with no hydraulic trim (YET). It is set up nice though .No cavitation ,no porpoising and is very stable at high speeds (After bleeding hydraulic steerring
).I love your input in all your posts . Just say it like it is
Thanks for any history you can give ![ 10-10-2001: Message edited by: boot ]
10-10-2001 | 09:25 PM
#202
Guest
Posts: n/a
Mike A.
An interesting post to say the least. Let me say now, that I may lack some of the polish and patience that some other board members may have, but I feel compelled to respond to some of your points.
First and foremost, I am disappointed at your disregard (or is it disrespect) for t2x by using his given name. If anyone on this post wants to use his own name as his alias that is his right, however it is in poor taste and class to so blatantly name drop when you want to make a point. Matter of fact, some other members have been very harsh in comments regarding the APBA and your “plan” or lack thereof, but you don’t call them out directly – in particular high-tide. Double standard or personal problem?
1. APBA and a former commentator have parted ways. I honestly don’t remember any posts to that regard on this topic but I am too lazy to review all of the messages to be sure. Regardless, why would you bring this up? Do you regret the decision? Are you trying to “smooth the waters”? You parted ways, that is your business, not ours. H&K does not post references to former employees on bulletin boards for no reason… Perhaps if this had any bearing to our concerns regarding offshore racing and the APBA it would make more sense to me, but it does not.
2. This point touches on the basis for the problems in F1 and F2 racing. The APBA seems to be concerned with nothing but power. Power is not the problem, particularly with APBA’s certification program – hull parity is the problem. Fountain Powerboats manufacture a product which takes full advantage of a glaring shortcoming in the APBA’s rules with well-known results. Hull length needs to be addressed for any true parody in these classes. Read through OSO – there are far more manufacturers than are represented in these classes. There is no point, however, in racing a 36-foot long boat that is 36 feet long, when you can race a 36-foot long boat that is effectively 32 feet long with the same power. By the way, cheap shot at Mr. Fountain, again your personal feelings seem to influence your organizations position.
3. Put it in context. The APBA is CRE. It may or may not be any more economical this year than it was last year, but this year APBA gets a cut. Again, the focus on parody in power.
4. Power, Power, Power – there seems to be a pattern here. In ASA there is still parody in chassis. You are part way there. The solution is very simple and tech would be a breeze. Almost there.
5. George Linder is a pioneer, an innovator and an important part in developing the sport. Organizations are fortunate to have his council. It is unfortunate, however, that the APBA does not show the same respect to innovators of today. If Linder was actively developing “products” today (and subject to the attitudes prevalent today), he could sit with Fountain and Weismann and talk about what might have been.
6. High-tide is right – there needs to be a plan. I hope there really is one. To date the only plan I have seen seems to be … wait, nope. Look at the last year. Kill one class because it does not fit in the grand scheme and lacks…something. Then, reintroduce those boats in a new class, with a new name and herald it as great. Change for change sake is not a plan.
7. You seem to be missing at least 1/3 of your revenue. But wait, you did not calculate the revenue generated from CRE (aka collected from the F1 and F2 racers). Don’t need to beat a dead horse; we saw the inconsistencies when the St. Pete’s race was in jeopardy.
Sorry Mike, I am not convinced yet. However, there is hope. It has always been the case in motorsports that one sanctioning body overcomes and becomes the dominant force. APBA is tenuously clinging to that domination, but the “offshore” division is laden with issues which much be addressed to survive. Only time will tell.
Go ahead. Ask me about the hulls.
An interesting post to say the least. Let me say now, that I may lack some of the polish and patience that some other board members may have, but I feel compelled to respond to some of your points.
First and foremost, I am disappointed at your disregard (or is it disrespect) for t2x by using his given name. If anyone on this post wants to use his own name as his alias that is his right, however it is in poor taste and class to so blatantly name drop when you want to make a point. Matter of fact, some other members have been very harsh in comments regarding the APBA and your “plan” or lack thereof, but you don’t call them out directly – in particular high-tide. Double standard or personal problem?
1. APBA and a former commentator have parted ways. I honestly don’t remember any posts to that regard on this topic but I am too lazy to review all of the messages to be sure. Regardless, why would you bring this up? Do you regret the decision? Are you trying to “smooth the waters”? You parted ways, that is your business, not ours. H&K does not post references to former employees on bulletin boards for no reason… Perhaps if this had any bearing to our concerns regarding offshore racing and the APBA it would make more sense to me, but it does not.
2. This point touches on the basis for the problems in F1 and F2 racing. The APBA seems to be concerned with nothing but power. Power is not the problem, particularly with APBA’s certification program – hull parity is the problem. Fountain Powerboats manufacture a product which takes full advantage of a glaring shortcoming in the APBA’s rules with well-known results. Hull length needs to be addressed for any true parody in these classes. Read through OSO – there are far more manufacturers than are represented in these classes. There is no point, however, in racing a 36-foot long boat that is 36 feet long, when you can race a 36-foot long boat that is effectively 32 feet long with the same power. By the way, cheap shot at Mr. Fountain, again your personal feelings seem to influence your organizations position.
3. Put it in context. The APBA is CRE. It may or may not be any more economical this year than it was last year, but this year APBA gets a cut. Again, the focus on parody in power.
4. Power, Power, Power – there seems to be a pattern here. In ASA there is still parody in chassis. You are part way there. The solution is very simple and tech would be a breeze. Almost there.
5. George Linder is a pioneer, an innovator and an important part in developing the sport. Organizations are fortunate to have his council. It is unfortunate, however, that the APBA does not show the same respect to innovators of today. If Linder was actively developing “products” today (and subject to the attitudes prevalent today), he could sit with Fountain and Weismann and talk about what might have been.
6. High-tide is right – there needs to be a plan. I hope there really is one. To date the only plan I have seen seems to be … wait, nope. Look at the last year. Kill one class because it does not fit in the grand scheme and lacks…something. Then, reintroduce those boats in a new class, with a new name and herald it as great. Change for change sake is not a plan.
7. You seem to be missing at least 1/3 of your revenue. But wait, you did not calculate the revenue generated from CRE (aka collected from the F1 and F2 racers). Don’t need to beat a dead horse; we saw the inconsistencies when the St. Pete’s race was in jeopardy.
Sorry Mike, I am not convinced yet. However, there is hope. It has always been the case in motorsports that one sanctioning body overcomes and becomes the dominant force. APBA is tenuously clinging to that domination, but the “offshore” division is laden with issues which much be addressed to survive. Only time will tell.
Go ahead. Ask me about the hulls.
10-10-2001 | 09:52 PM
#204
Registered
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,174
Likes: 5
From: Flemington, N.J. U.S.A
boatlesss, thats OK ,I bought it that way ,and for the right price I might add. I am just looking for a little history on the boat and some insight on the equipment is a plus .I'll try (almost )anything once !
10-10-2001 | 10:14 PM
#205
Registered
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 211
Likes: 0
From: Tarpon Springs, FL
adivanman wrote:
2. This point touches on the basis for the problems in F1 and F2 racing. The APBA seems to be concerned with nothing but power. Power is not the problem, particularly with APBA’s certification program – hull parity is the problem. Fountain Powerboats manufacture a product which takes full advantage of a glaring shortcoming in the APBA’s rules with well-known results. Hull length needs to be addressed for any true parody in these classes. Read through OSO – there are far more manufacturers than are represented in these classes. There is no point, however, in racing a 36-foot long boat that is 36 feet long, when you can race a 36-foot long boat that is effectively 32 feet long with the same power.......
Please expand, I'm not following your thought process here.....If you race an APBA measured 36' boat and call it a 36' you race at that weight. If you race an APBA measured 32' boat and call it a 35' you still race at the 32' weight. It's still 32' no matter how you look at it. Where does calling it a 35' get you any advantage.
Factory II can race anything from 30' to 38'.
Factory I can race anything from 24' to 29'.
Actually I'm not sure with your calculations how a 38' Cigarette and a 36' Cigarette competed against those 32'(35') boats.
Andrew Corn
2. This point touches on the basis for the problems in F1 and F2 racing. The APBA seems to be concerned with nothing but power. Power is not the problem, particularly with APBA’s certification program – hull parity is the problem. Fountain Powerboats manufacture a product which takes full advantage of a glaring shortcoming in the APBA’s rules with well-known results. Hull length needs to be addressed for any true parody in these classes. Read through OSO – there are far more manufacturers than are represented in these classes. There is no point, however, in racing a 36-foot long boat that is 36 feet long, when you can race a 36-foot long boat that is effectively 32 feet long with the same power.......
Please expand, I'm not following your thought process here.....If you race an APBA measured 36' boat and call it a 36' you race at that weight. If you race an APBA measured 32' boat and call it a 35' you still race at the 32' weight. It's still 32' no matter how you look at it. Where does calling it a 35' get you any advantage.
Factory II can race anything from 30' to 38'.
Factory I can race anything from 24' to 29'.
Actually I'm not sure with your calculations how a 38' Cigarette and a 36' Cigarette competed against those 32'(35') boats.
Andrew Corn
10-11-2001 | 02:11 AM
#206
Registered
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 596
Likes: 33
Boot, have you tried calling Ross Focht, at Ocean Express Powerboats? (810-794-5551) http://www.oceanexpress.com/
He can tell a story or two like Mr. T2x. He will attempt to dazzle you with the fact that he was the first to make a composite Catamaran, won world racing titles with his boats and builds them to the best of his abilities.
But on the bright side, he can inform you about your boat. He made it. Others can say what they want, but the fact is you have a “Ross Focht” creation.
They are not a bad boat, not going to compare them to anything else because that is not fair to anyone. Yours performs very well, especially for a pleasure boat.
Don’t let T2x discourage you about the surface drives, as the Express Cats do not work well with conventional Mercury out drives, in fact they are far slower. Just as Ross…
He can tell a story or two like Mr. T2x. He will attempt to dazzle you with the fact that he was the first to make a composite Catamaran, won world racing titles with his boats and builds them to the best of his abilities.
But on the bright side, he can inform you about your boat. He made it. Others can say what they want, but the fact is you have a “Ross Focht” creation.
They are not a bad boat, not going to compare them to anything else because that is not fair to anyone. Yours performs very well, especially for a pleasure boat.
Don’t let T2x discourage you about the surface drives, as the Express Cats do not work well with conventional Mercury out drives, in fact they are far slower. Just as Ross…
10-11-2001 | 09:02 AM
#207
Registered
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 560
Likes: 0
From: NJ
Boatlesss,
I think T2x’s comments about using surface drives was directed at the Shadow/Chris cat hulls, and not the Express cats. But I might be wrong. I was not aware T2x had any input re: Boot’s express cat. Forgive me if I am wrong.
Philip
I think T2x’s comments about using surface drives was directed at the Shadow/Chris cat hulls, and not the Express cats. But I might be wrong. I was not aware T2x had any input re: Boot’s express cat. Forgive me if I am wrong.
Philip
10-11-2001 | 10:22 AM
#208
Thread Starter
Allergic to Nonsense
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,007
Likes: 21
From: Granite Quarry, NC
Boatless:
Actually we designed and installed a set of fixed surface drives on the last boat we built and they worked well.....Steerable Arneson and Kaama drives are legendery for 2 things:
1. steering and tie bar problems
2. Lack of true trimability.
If they work on Express Cats....great.
I have no frame of reference....
FYI the original Express boats were authorised copies of the English Cougar hulls and they ran damn well with Mercruiser Stern drives..... "Flyin Butch Ryan" for instance.
Actually we designed and installed a set of fixed surface drives on the last boat we built and they worked well.....Steerable Arneson and Kaama drives are legendery for 2 things:
1. steering and tie bar problems
2. Lack of true trimability.
If they work on Express Cats....great.
I have no frame of reference....
FYI the original Express boats were authorised copies of the English Cougar hulls and they ran damn well with Mercruiser Stern drives..... "Flyin Butch Ryan" for instance.
10-11-2001 | 10:41 AM
#209
Thread Starter
Allergic to Nonsense
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,007
Likes: 21
From: Granite Quarry, NC
Boot:
That's a big boat you've got there and I bet it rides great..... As to the rotation question.... If your boat ever gets into a situation where it is heeled well over with only one prop in the water and balanced on the outside of a sponson...spinning out will tend to bring it back down correctly...spinning in will aggravate the situation and tend to push the boat over, that's physics... not what I "like". If your boat never gets into those situations it is a moot point. With my boat at 4000# and over 115 mph, I like to have everything in my favor BEFORE I turn the wheel...... Nuff said.
Boatless- Last year I watched the Super cats launch at St Pete, My recollection is that Gone Again was spinning in..but I will double check, some boats came in and out and there were various test runs, changes etc....... Regardless, spinning in will still create more barrel rolls than spinning out. But we can agree that not all barrel rolls are caused by prop rotation.....some are the result of simple driver error, poor c/g and weight distribution....or a "chop" in a turn.
T2x
[ 10-11-2001: Message edited by: T2x ]
That's a big boat you've got there and I bet it rides great..... As to the rotation question.... If your boat ever gets into a situation where it is heeled well over with only one prop in the water and balanced on the outside of a sponson...spinning out will tend to bring it back down correctly...spinning in will aggravate the situation and tend to push the boat over, that's physics... not what I "like". If your boat never gets into those situations it is a moot point. With my boat at 4000# and over 115 mph, I like to have everything in my favor BEFORE I turn the wheel...... Nuff said.
Boatless- Last year I watched the Super cats launch at St Pete, My recollection is that Gone Again was spinning in..but I will double check, some boats came in and out and there were various test runs, changes etc....... Regardless, spinning in will still create more barrel rolls than spinning out. But we can agree that not all barrel rolls are caused by prop rotation.....some are the result of simple driver error, poor c/g and weight distribution....or a "chop" in a turn.
T2x
[ 10-11-2001: Message edited by: T2x ]
10-11-2001 | 10:58 AM
#210
Registered
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 211
Likes: 0
From: Tarpon Springs, FL
I believe, but may be having a senior moment, that towards the end of Butch's offshore career that he ran Arnesons with a fixed trim bar (no trim ram) and was one of the first to run a solid tie bar on a tower with them.
Very few people have the patience to install and maintain or have the expertise to use the trimable Hydraulic tie bar.
Very few people have the patience to install and maintain or have the expertise to use the trimable Hydraulic tie bar.
