I to am totally guilty Pat, but I to have learned from others mistakes and as you get older you seem to GET IT more often than not.

The one thing i think has not been said here and i am sure i will take a lot of flack for saying this, but the person(s) who were really responsible for the death of two men in Cumberland recently were the two men themselves in the boat that went over. Contrary to how Mike A or any other Lawyer wants to look at it. You can blame a lot of people for the accident (tis how the lawyers make there money) but the blame goes squarely on the two guys who put themselves at risk.

I wrote a bit about this when Keven Sellers died in his Skater at Cumberland a few years ago. Kevin knew what could happen living the life he led (a bit on the edge) And what he would have wanted was education to come from his accident and not blame or lawsuits. Not knowing the two that passed away this year I would hope they would have wanted the same thing.

We need to learn from these accidents and work to attempt to put in place preventative measures that no longer allow the bad behavior of the fly by's. We need to work to keep participants ability to put themselves in harms way, or anyone else way, out of our events.

A lot of people did the wrong things at the event in Cumberland this year, and two men paid the ultimate price.

According to the fly by videos I saw posted, Brad and Jeff were acting less than responsible as they to were doing fly by's as well. Everyone wants to jump on Pyburns fly by, but Jeff and Brad acted poorly as well. Evidenced by this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NGi5yU0FOs
Where is the outrage for the bad behavior of Jeff and Brad, or for the other cat that blew by with him? Someone has to be the unpopular voice and I guess it will be me. (sems I always am) I feel terrible for the families of the two men who died as this is not what they hoped for, but from what I understand neither Jeff or Brad were not stupid guys and they were not forced to go boating that day. It is my bet that they knew the risks when they got in the boat for the poker run. They, and they alone, put there butts in the seats of an extremely fast boat and paid the ultimate price for attending this event.

If we want top put blame out there then it needs to fall on the people who knew what they were getting into (contrary to how a lawyer would have you think)

We need change within the promoting and and running of these events, and this stuff has to stop! But also we have to stop blaming the guy in front of the boat that flipped (Pure Platinum, pleasure boats out in front of them, or other factors) and maybe just maybe we should look to the guys behind the dash board of the Skater that went over.

This is the point I have been trying to make this hobby isn't golf. That second red and silver cat in our current example is not going to call command HQ and request a fly by penalty on themselves. Given human nature asking participants to report on each others misdeeds leads to what we have in this thread uneven condemnation/enforcement as people try to protect the identities of their friends which will ultimately destroy the comraderie that helps make these events attractive to all participants. Without solid data about what is happening along the run, how is the promoter back at command HQ supposed to control anything or enforce the rules?

Some of these proposed rules and guidelines like blanket speed limits or always running behind pace boats seem very clearly to be a case of a cure that will kill the patient we hope to save.

that's fine, we have known who the fast boats are for years, the written beating that the dumbasses on here are going about is ridiculous. I told you on the phone the other day who the 3rd boat was yet you ask for it to be written here. Pointing fingers after this accident and affixing blame does nothing, make the rules and set them forth for future runs. the name calling and linking of videos in signature lines is school yard juvenile. Accidents happen on poker runs, had a guy at solomans last year chop his throttle right in front of me and I had to take evasive action to miss him, put me close to other boats. there are no defined lines, rules can be made but not with the lynch mob mentality of this group. I'm more worried about having you finger pointers and the crooked self serving attorney near me than any of the faster boats, you just look for reasons to blame someone other than yourselves.

I heard from a quasi reliable 5th hand source that sunkin was driving the 3rd boat

All the speculation, identification and what if or who is to blame will not bring the dead back. I thought the emphasis here was keep more people from getting dead.....

Though I have never experienced it first hand, I have witnessed others do it many times and getting dead just doesn't look like much fun.

So lets try to get back on the topic of keeping our friends from getting killed before we lose more of them.

Thank you and have a nice day.

I know you told me.

But it wasn't that boat.

I asked for confirmation.

The boat in question is a Skater.

Look at it a different way.

Forget all of us cuz what we do to one another is. Self inflicted.

These poker runs have become very significant earners for good charities.

The charities didn't cause that.

We stood up , chests out and became their angels.

They rely on us.

Look at the money Dave P has raised. And Omg look at Lake Lanier for Christ sake.

The charities are who is going to suffer if this gets crappy.

They rely on this crowd to police itself and if that includes outing whoever may be going back to their home poker run after behaving very unsafely, then so be it.

This has been a very interesting thread even since the first fatal accident that spawned it. I have refrained from posting since I do not participate in poker runs. You had the guts to call it like it is and I will have the guts to share the "flack".

I stand by my facts. as for the crowd policing itself. what part of things happen don't you guys get. the people with fast boats are 99% self made, meaning they aren't dumb individuals, do you really think that they aren't fully aware of what has and is happening?Secondly do any of you really believe that anyone went to this run with the intention of dying?

The only thing that is going to change is at the next run a rule breaker gets sent home, I have seen it before for an alcohol violation, every one else got the point.

Since I seem to be the only one that has been drug in to a lawsuit over this type of thing I think I am qualified to provide this observation.
Knowing how lawyers can twist things in an effort to place blame on everyone else. I will provide some food for thought. (again not the popular voice)

Here are the choices Brad and Jeff made that day.

1) Running in a poker run with fast boats driven by a bunch of amateurs, running an extremely fast boat not knowing the boating qualifications of those they are running with ( I do not consider anyone a pro unless they are racing in a sanctioned event)

2) Running fast on a non closed course expediting spectators to do all the correct things and stay out of the way when it is an open water way for everyone
3) Doing fly by's at high speed
4) Not running under 100 mph where the likely hood (not guarantee) of having a safe run would be better.
5) Choosing to run a boat in a manner where you find you are crossing another boat's rooster tail at high speed that may cause you to elevate your bow and experience a blow over.

I hope event promoters will learn! (Some have and are taking the steps needed) It took a lot of car accidents to convince us we need seat belts and air bags. Now they are a mandatory part of the landscape. I hope we do not need more death in poker runs to prove IT IS TIME TO CHANGE OUR WAYS.

That said, I am sorry to disagree with the lawyers and other lynch mob rangers. At the end of the day the blame goes to the two men who died. No one set out to hurt them or try to cause harm to anyone else. No more than the two men tried to expire there own lives.

Change comes from observing and learning from past mistakes, sometimes it comes from tragedy

BLAME COMES FROM LAWYERS AND FOOLS

I agree with almost everything you said Indy. With the looks of these videos it shows me these people are participants. Taking videos, cheering and just being there makes you a participant. When people go to any event where do they want to be? Front row. They almost know what they are getting into but do they truly know what can really happen. I would say 90% of the boaters on the water that day knew exactly what was going on. And a couple people did pay the price that day but luckily no one else did.