Splashing Hulls: Right or Wrong?
03-16-2002, 08:55 AM
#91
Hey John, I like the looks of your boats. What do you have in the 28-32' Cat range? any for single engine? any pictures?
Now what about "Copying" other things-- exhaust systems, intakes, bravo lower units, extension boxes, guages, colored ropes, cylinder head porting.
Coke/pepsi, levis, cars, motorcycles, Where does it stop?
It's the American way. Take someone elses product and make it better, cheaper, faster, and call it yours'. And make a buck at it.
Doesn't that force the original guy to make sure his is the best, cheapest and fastest.
"Immitation is the finest form of flattery" Isn't it?
I'm not for or against 'splashing' But don't have double standards on other things. Now would I like a 36' Skater copy fully rigged out the door for $125,000.
Now what about "Copying" other things-- exhaust systems, intakes, bravo lower units, extension boxes, guages, colored ropes, cylinder head porting.
Coke/pepsi, levis, cars, motorcycles, Where does it stop?
It's the American way. Take someone elses product and make it better, cheaper, faster, and call it yours'. And make a buck at it.
Doesn't that force the original guy to make sure his is the best, cheapest and fastest.
"Immitation is the finest form of flattery" Isn't it?
I'm not for or against 'splashing' But don't have double standards on other things. Now would I like a 36' Skater copy fully rigged out the door for $125,000.
03-16-2002, 09:12 AM
#92
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But what if there isn't any visual difference between YOUR product and THIER product? There is no problem with improving a design until it isn't recognizable anymore, but that's not what this thread is about.
Jeep is suing Humvie right now, because the grill looks too similar to the deisgn of the Jeeps front grill. You can't splash a car or a coke -- a splash is made from a direct molding technique -- When you pop a hull its an exact image of the first. The coke bottle and recipe are both very much protected.
Sometimes the splashers claim there are some 'changes' in the hull. Many of them do make serious changes, but the splashes being done with our boats have such slight chages you can barely find them. Some have no change at all.
We got a call one time from some friends, congratulating us on our boat being in the new Mercury brochure -- when I saw it I even thought it was our boat!
It looked *exactly* the same, perfect mirror image to our boat, but it wasn't ours! It was a total splash.
Puder was right on when he said, if you think you can make improvements on an existing hull then do it the legit way -- buy the molds or design rights from the owner and go for it! And that's precisely what the guy did who purchased our company.
It is wrong to simply pop the designs and start calling them your own.
Jeep is suing Humvie right now, because the grill looks too similar to the deisgn of the Jeeps front grill. You can't splash a car or a coke -- a splash is made from a direct molding technique -- When you pop a hull its an exact image of the first. The coke bottle and recipe are both very much protected.
Sometimes the splashers claim there are some 'changes' in the hull. Many of them do make serious changes, but the splashes being done with our boats have such slight chages you can barely find them. Some have no change at all.
We got a call one time from some friends, congratulating us on our boat being in the new Mercury brochure -- when I saw it I even thought it was our boat!
It looked *exactly* the same, perfect mirror image to our boat, but it wasn't ours! It was a total splash.
Puder was right on when he said, if you think you can make improvements on an existing hull then do it the legit way -- buy the molds or design rights from the owner and go for it! And that's precisely what the guy did who purchased our company.
It is wrong to simply pop the designs and start calling them your own.
03-16-2002, 09:30 AM
#93
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Wow! this thread sure took an unexpected turn to the south. It was a very interesting thread and history lesson untill people brought up what had evedently been hashed out on other boards.
BK I agree with your position. I'm pleasently suprised to find out your were, Mirage boats. I didn't know that when I posted that pic of my old Mirage. I would like to find out more about my boat.
Was this a different company than your's? I was told it was built ( and raced) in Florida. Now this may be wrong. I believe they also made a 30 or 32 foot version that was also availible with a jet drive.
Please feem free to email me.
Mark
BK I agree with your position. I'm pleasently suprised to find out your were, Mirage boats. I didn't know that when I posted that pic of my old Mirage. I would like to find out more about my boat.
Was this a different company than your's? I was told it was built ( and raced) in Florida. Now this may be wrong. I believe they also made a 30 or 32 foot version that was also availible with a jet drive.
Please feem free to email me.
Mark
03-16-2002, 09:39 AM
#94
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im sorry jon . .im just have'n a tough time agreeing with you . .. i mean if you want to build a better boat, take the ideas and designs you like in other boats , build your own plug and pull your mold from IT.
there is a company close to me that has spent the last few years developing a 49 foot cat. they have spent countless hours and countless $$$ testing, designing, working plugs from scratch, building thier own molds. this whole process has taken many months (or years) and you say it is OK for you to buy one, flip it over , pull a mold with what about a months worth of labor an start sell'n boats because you think you can build it better.it takes more than just a styling change to constitute an improvment.
i realize this is a tough subject. you are right . . .some boats are built like crap and you may very well be able to build it better. but to just splash the original just dosent seem right. if you can build a better boat than do so . . but why dont you start from scratch.
there is a company close to me that has spent the last few years developing a 49 foot cat. they have spent countless hours and countless $$$ testing, designing, working plugs from scratch, building thier own molds. this whole process has taken many months (or years) and you say it is OK for you to buy one, flip it over , pull a mold with what about a months worth of labor an start sell'n boats because you think you can build it better.it takes more than just a styling change to constitute an improvment.
i realize this is a tough subject. you are right . . .some boats are built like crap and you may very well be able to build it better. but to just splash the original just dosent seem right. if you can build a better boat than do so . . but why dont you start from scratch.
03-16-2002, 11:04 AM
#96
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Havasu, John et al:
1. If you build a fake Rolex you are not an "honest businessman"..... you are a thief.
2. If you get away with it and are not "in jail"...you are a lucky thief.......
3. If you get on a website and lash out at people who point this out............. you are defensive thief.
4. If you make it personal.....you are a nasty thief.
5. If you maintain that your Rolex is better than the original...... you are a deluded thief.
6. If people buy your Rolexes, that neither justifies nor minimizes your thievery....in fact, you pulled the wool over their eyes too.
6. Any way you look at it.....you'll always be a thief...until you take responsibility for being a thief....... and build an original watch. .... Of course if you could do that, you wouldn't have been a thief in the first place.
T2x
1. If you build a fake Rolex you are not an "honest businessman"..... you are a thief.
2. If you get away with it and are not "in jail"...you are a lucky thief.......
3. If you get on a website and lash out at people who point this out............. you are defensive thief.
4. If you make it personal.....you are a nasty thief.
5. If you maintain that your Rolex is better than the original...... you are a deluded thief.
6. If people buy your Rolexes, that neither justifies nor minimizes your thievery....in fact, you pulled the wool over their eyes too.
6. Any way you look at it.....you'll always be a thief...until you take responsibility for being a thief....... and build an original watch. .... Of course if you could do that, you wouldn't have been a thief in the first place.
T2x
Last edited by T2x; 03-16-2002 at 11:06 AM.
03-16-2002, 11:40 AM
#98
The difference is they are not trying to sell them as the 'original'. They are not calling them 'Rolexes'. They might be calling them something else but not by the original name-- yes that's thievery. If I splash a whatever say skater and try to sell it as a skater I belong in jail. If I tell what it is, and call it a skeeter a great impersonator but not an original and built it either better or worse, cheaper or more expensive, What am I?
Harley-Davidson had this problem when there was a 2 year wait for their product. So other companies 'Copied' the bikes and sell them as their own, by their own name. Now there are a half dozn companies selling what look just like Harleys out there. Ok not an original, but so..
Harley-Davidson had this problem when there was a 2 year wait for their product. So other companies 'Copied' the bikes and sell them as their own, by their own name. Now there are a half dozn companies selling what look just like Harleys out there. Ok not an original, but so..
03-16-2002, 11:46 AM
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Hi Payton~
I saw the pic of your boat and it comes from a different company company called Mirage Mfg out of Washington State. Our company was Mirage Boats Inc. and was in Texas until 1997,when it was purchased by Mike Mullins and the molds moved to the new owners location in Florida, where they are building them today.
Our Mirage company never built a boat larger than a 23', and everything was either a hi perf True Tunnel or Modified Tunnel. Much of our stuff was 18' and under, and built strictly for OPC, Drag or Lake racing, so you can imagne the R&D involved in this sector is incredible. Like glassdave said, there is so much hard work, not to mention the months of testing involved, before you can even thinking about building a plug or mold on this type of project.
But a splashing company can wait until after all that hard work has been completed, and then greases the boat up and pops it, and in just a few days he can start building a replica for a fraction of the hard work and cost of building an actual plug. Easy money, and that's why so many jumped on the bandwagon.
Our hull bottoms changed yearly, sometimes even more frequently than that, so by the time the splashers came along, we were already one step ahead of them. (Most of the time)
But boy is this a very, very costly way to do business! Huge chunk of a companies annual profits is bitten off with constant tooling and R&D. So out of necessity, many of the companies who actually could build better designs if the competition was on the level, had no choice but to join the splashers, rather than spend the tens of thousands of dollars it takes design their own stuff.
Sadly, a few of the original hull builders who normally spent tons of money on R&D had to find a solution to avoid financial ruin, so they turned to splashing too - even though they knew it was the wrong direction to take. They were just trying to keep up with the bargain prices of their splash-competition and remain in business. They knew all along is was theft, so they tried to disguise the product.
But there are a some who dont even bother disguising them anymore, and there are at least two brands I can't even tell if it is our boat or a splash of ours! Its blatant copying.
But when you speak to some of the original hull design companies -- even though they may have been sucked into the splash problem involuntarily -- they will tell you they would much prefer to get splashing back under control, so they can get back to the business of producing original hull designs, by legitimate hull designers.
With the new law passed in 1998, these beautiful works are now protected from copyright theft. So builders wont be hesitant to start a brand new hull from scratch any longer.
Puder
- Here's something you'll find interesting - The Vessel Hull Design Protection Act of 1998 is a sister to another law: The Pub. L. No. 105-147 "No Electronic Theft (NET) Act", which protects pirated software, but also protects the code designers from having years of hard work be "splashed' and modified just a tiny bit, and resold to the public in bulk at a ridiculous fraction of the cost.
Hey - just maybe your E-designs are protected after all? Check out this letter:
http://www.house.gov/judiciary/digr0512.htm
I saw the pic of your boat and it comes from a different company company called Mirage Mfg out of Washington State. Our company was Mirage Boats Inc. and was in Texas until 1997,when it was purchased by Mike Mullins and the molds moved to the new owners location in Florida, where they are building them today.
Our Mirage company never built a boat larger than a 23', and everything was either a hi perf True Tunnel or Modified Tunnel. Much of our stuff was 18' and under, and built strictly for OPC, Drag or Lake racing, so you can imagne the R&D involved in this sector is incredible. Like glassdave said, there is so much hard work, not to mention the months of testing involved, before you can even thinking about building a plug or mold on this type of project.
But a splashing company can wait until after all that hard work has been completed, and then greases the boat up and pops it, and in just a few days he can start building a replica for a fraction of the hard work and cost of building an actual plug. Easy money, and that's why so many jumped on the bandwagon.
Our hull bottoms changed yearly, sometimes even more frequently than that, so by the time the splashers came along, we were already one step ahead of them. (Most of the time)
But boy is this a very, very costly way to do business! Huge chunk of a companies annual profits is bitten off with constant tooling and R&D. So out of necessity, many of the companies who actually could build better designs if the competition was on the level, had no choice but to join the splashers, rather than spend the tens of thousands of dollars it takes design their own stuff.
Sadly, a few of the original hull builders who normally spent tons of money on R&D had to find a solution to avoid financial ruin, so they turned to splashing too - even though they knew it was the wrong direction to take. They were just trying to keep up with the bargain prices of their splash-competition and remain in business. They knew all along is was theft, so they tried to disguise the product.
But there are a some who dont even bother disguising them anymore, and there are at least two brands I can't even tell if it is our boat or a splash of ours! Its blatant copying.
But when you speak to some of the original hull design companies -- even though they may have been sucked into the splash problem involuntarily -- they will tell you they would much prefer to get splashing back under control, so they can get back to the business of producing original hull designs, by legitimate hull designers.
With the new law passed in 1998, these beautiful works are now protected from copyright theft. So builders wont be hesitant to start a brand new hull from scratch any longer.
Puder
- Here's something you'll find interesting - The Vessel Hull Design Protection Act of 1998 is a sister to another law: The Pub. L. No. 105-147 "No Electronic Theft (NET) Act", which protects pirated software, but also protects the code designers from having years of hard work be "splashed' and modified just a tiny bit, and resold to the public in bulk at a ridiculous fraction of the cost.
Hey - just maybe your E-designs are protected after all? Check out this letter:
http://www.house.gov/judiciary/digr0512.htm
Last edited by BK; 03-16-2002 at 12:04 PM.
03-16-2002, 12:03 PM
#100
BK, You said you changed bottom designs yearly or even more frequently-- was that because of your own developement, redesign to make a better product or was your motive to just keep splashers at bay? It sound like you kept on making a better boat and product.
I ask what do you do with a design 5 iterations ago that you no longer use and are now on to a new and better model? Throw it in the trash out back? Cut it up? The molds are yours but you don't own what comes out of them. Or do you?
I ask what do you do with a design 5 iterations ago that you no longer use and are now on to a new and better model? Throw it in the trash out back? Cut it up? The molds are yours but you don't own what comes out of them. Or do you?
