Splashing Hulls: Right or Wrong?
03-16-2002, 12:51 AM
#81
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That's a bunch of bull****
You and I have been down this path what 20 or 30 different times?
And you just innocently bring up this topic just hoping that maybe somebody might share some ideas about .....
Bull**** BK, you know very well where your steering this, you have started this same thread dozens of times.
You promote half truths and some flat out lies about the practice you claim to be so widespread it is ruining an indusrty that you are only a by-stander in.
That **** you promote does take away from the livelyhood of some honest people.
The practice of coping succusful products takes place in every indusrty in America.
If those same couragous bold designers are so damn good, let them do it again.
You are only as good as your last design, now can you build a better product.
Who cares if it is hard and costly, that means very few will follow your path.
In America, we reward the best, not the complainers.
This should be about the consumer, that is the person in the chain that needs protection.
And you just innocently bring up this topic just hoping that maybe somebody might share some ideas about .....
Bull**** BK, you know very well where your steering this, you have started this same thread dozens of times.
You promote half truths and some flat out lies about the practice you claim to be so widespread it is ruining an indusrty that you are only a by-stander in.
That **** you promote does take away from the livelyhood of some honest people.
The practice of coping succusful products takes place in every indusrty in America.
If those same couragous bold designers are so damn good, let them do it again.
You are only as good as your last design, now can you build a better product.
Who cares if it is hard and costly, that means very few will follow your path.
In America, we reward the best, not the complainers.
This should be about the consumer, that is the person in the chain that needs protection.
03-16-2002, 01:07 AM
#82
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Of course I know where I'm steering this. Same place I've steered this issue for 14 years before I ever knew there was a Barney. This practice affected our business largely, and affects my builder friends who are still in business, so you can bully me, but it wont stop me from talking about it anymore.
There's nothing wrong with telling our views on why splashing is wrong. My personal goal is to spread the information about this law, so honest builders can use it to help design theft come to an end.
There's nothing wrong with telling our views on why splashing is wrong. My personal goal is to spread the information about this law, so honest builders can use it to help design theft come to an end.
03-16-2002, 01:27 AM
#83
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Oh yeah, poor little BK
Getting bullied in mans worlds.
So you think that there is nothing wrong with the practice of spreading your opinion even though it hurts honest buisness people?
Boy, you must be the industry savior.
You don't give a **** about anybody, your just playing political games with no purpose outside of your own ego.
My point has always been that it effected your business so much because your simply were never good at building your boats or selling them.
I have repaired enough of your transoms to know that.
To the best of my knowledge those were never original designs anyway.
If they were, how come original drawings or info is never available?
Maybe we should ask David Lee about that since they were his designs and his drawings to begin with.
Just had to come back and add, the idea BK, that you think your opinion is the only correct interpetation of boat building, boat design or even the effects on a marketplace, a marketplace that you are completely removed from, a marketplace you don't even subscribe to as a consumer (non boater), the idea that you are correct, reassures us all that you are indeed a woman.
I should have taken that into consideration and politely asked you to post a picture first!
Then we'll all decide how valid your opinion is. 
So you think that there is nothing wrong with the practice of spreading your opinion even though it hurts honest buisness people?
Boy, you must be the industry savior.
You don't give a **** about anybody, your just playing political games with no purpose outside of your own ego.
My point has always been that it effected your business so much because your simply were never good at building your boats or selling them.
I have repaired enough of your transoms to know that.
To the best of my knowledge those were never original designs anyway.
If they were, how come original drawings or info is never available?
Maybe we should ask David Lee about that since they were his designs and his drawings to begin with.
Just had to come back and add, the idea BK, that you think your opinion is the only correct interpetation of boat building, boat design or even the effects on a marketplace, a marketplace that you are completely removed from, a marketplace you don't even subscribe to as a consumer (non boater), the idea that you are correct, reassures us all that you are indeed a woman.
I should have taken that into consideration and politely asked you to post a picture first!
Then we'll all decide how valid your opinion is.
Last edited by Havasu Barney; 03-16-2002 at 01:52 AM.
03-16-2002, 01:50 AM
#84
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As usual, you make this a personal thing. Throwing the decoys in to twist the issue.
This thread is about splashing: Right or wrong.
Opinions are welcomed and open to debate.
PS -- I really dont like to take this thread personal, but since you're making some false accusations directly toward our reputation, the history lesson is worth it: David Lee was "hired" to build the plug for Mirage (not to be confused with the Wasthington state Mirage boat company) using the Mirage owners own designs - a Collins/Cullen Company. Lee did not own those designs and never did. He built a few boats for Mirage, but only as a contract builder because Mirage did not have it's own facility at that time. The original Mirage design idea, that Lee built, came from my father in law and his partner.
The Lee family are good friends of ours, have been for years. We see them quite frequently. They are terrific designers too.
This thread is about splashing: Right or wrong.
Opinions are welcomed and open to debate.
PS -- I really dont like to take this thread personal, but since you're making some false accusations directly toward our reputation, the history lesson is worth it: David Lee was "hired" to build the plug for Mirage (not to be confused with the Wasthington state Mirage boat company) using the Mirage owners own designs - a Collins/Cullen Company. Lee did not own those designs and never did. He built a few boats for Mirage, but only as a contract builder because Mirage did not have it's own facility at that time. The original Mirage design idea, that Lee built, came from my father in law and his partner.
The Lee family are good friends of ours, have been for years. We see them quite frequently. They are terrific designers too.
Last edited by BK; 03-16-2002 at 02:01 AM.
03-16-2002, 01:59 AM
#85
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No BK
You made this personal many threads ago.
When you believe that your opinion is so highly valued that you can justify taking bread off the tables of honest hard working people, then you have turned it personal.
Every month, when the bills come, it's very personal.
When your comments are protected by the administration of another board and you continue to post half truths and lies directly about my friends, my boats, thier safty, YES, I take it very personal.
It's just my opinion BK, why is yours more valid than mine?
Just want to spread your opinion......?
When you believe that your opinion is so highly valued that you can justify taking bread off the tables of honest hard working people, then you have turned it personal.
Every month, when the bills come, it's very personal.
When your comments are protected by the administration of another board and you continue to post half truths and lies directly about my friends, my boats, thier safty, YES, I take it very personal.
It's just my opinion BK, why is yours more valid than mine?
Just want to spread your opinion......?
Last edited by Havasu Barney; 03-16-2002 at 02:02 AM.
03-16-2002, 02:17 AM
#86
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you continue to post half truths and lies directly about my friends, my boats, thier safty, YES, I take it very personal.
Come on Barney. If I mention 'splashes' and you immediately assume I'm talking about your boats, then I really can't help that, can I.
If I have really have lied about your friends or whatever, I'm sure you can send a link -- But you can't because it NEVER happened. If true, then you should be able to post a copy of it here.
But I think the reality is that you are just desperate to change this subject any way you can. Or badger me like you normally do, hoping I will leave.
So instead of a repeat of the barrage of insults, why not just tell us why splashes are better?
No more personal crap -- let the thread continue.
I'm just going to sit back now, and read the rest of the opinions, whatever they may be.
Last edited by BK; 03-16-2002 at 02:41 AM.
03-16-2002, 02:55 AM
#87
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Better?
The better boat is determined by the quality of materials and workmanship, splash or non-spash.
I'm not saying it's better, just needed in the equation.
In America it's like the equalizer, it's the other end of the spec trum from monopoly.
It exist everywhere, in every marketplace, food service, autos, housing, it's called an open market.
Who's to say where the next talent may emerge, let the best boat builders do that, build boats, the marketplace will take care of itself.
You want to back off with the "right or wrong, just direct copy" BS, we as consumers rarely even know what is what andwhich came first by whom, damn we just want the best boat we can get.
Your innocent conversations have always ventured into the existing legal business's that are using older and yes copied designs.
Your BS effects all the aspects of perfectly legal business, your tainted slant on things is just yours and it hurts innocent peoples lives.
Come on BK, you really think you can hide your personal feelings here?
You come in with this voice of authority thinking you have the right to say anything you want with recourse.... NEWS FLASH the waters a little deeper here, Offshore and all, you gotta stand on your own here.
Liberator makes a boat very similar to BK's old company.
Liberator also makes a boat very similar to an older 24 Skater, mine is almost ready
.... didn't you just visit Skater BK?
I sell Liberators, sort of..., you have to want to buy one, I don't wanna sell.
Hmmm,
Barrage of insults??
I thought we were sharing opinions?
I'm not saying it's better, just needed in the equation.
In America it's like the equalizer, it's the other end of the spec trum from monopoly.
It exist everywhere, in every marketplace, food service, autos, housing, it's called an open market.
Who's to say where the next talent may emerge, let the best boat builders do that, build boats, the marketplace will take care of itself.
You want to back off with the "right or wrong, just direct copy" BS, we as consumers rarely even know what is what andwhich came first by whom, damn we just want the best boat we can get.
Your innocent conversations have always ventured into the existing legal business's that are using older and yes copied designs.
Your BS effects all the aspects of perfectly legal business, your tainted slant on things is just yours and it hurts innocent peoples lives.
Come on BK, you really think you can hide your personal feelings here?
You come in with this voice of authority thinking you have the right to say anything you want with recourse.... NEWS FLASH the waters a little deeper here, Offshore and all, you gotta stand on your own here.
Liberator makes a boat very similar to BK's old company.
Liberator also makes a boat very similar to an older
24 Skater, mine is almost ready.... didn't you just visit Skater BK?I sell Liberators, sort of..., you have to want to buy one, I don't wanna sell.
Hmmm,
Barrage of insults??
I thought we were sharing opinions?
03-16-2002, 03:05 AM
#88
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Hmmmmmm
Originally posted by BK
Puder -
We just visited Skater 2 weeks ago -- they are still building the 24 Cat and even had one in production.
Puder -
We just visited Skater 2 weeks ago -- they are still building the 24 Cat and even had one in production.
Yep, just sweet innocent polling of the people, maybe a little push here and there.....
Out of the blue..........
03-16-2002, 05:35 AM
#89
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o workl as a graphic and web designer. Desgn theft is pretty rampant in my field as well. It damne asy to steal a logo from a web siet change the text and resell it to another client.
Barney you keep refferring to "honest bussinessman" if they were honest whhy woulnd;t they contact the manufacturer of an existing hull (weather in production or not) and see what teh deal with producing it would be. Maybe the designer woudl sell them the origonal molds maybe they woudl just say who cares feel free maybe they might ask for asmall royalty fee. Point is if the biulder was honest the would ask permission first.
I know if someone ganked my website and changed the logo and called it thier that woudl piss me off big time and rightfully so I spend a lot of time and energy developing a produc that reflect my skills, tastes, and personality (my buissiness is just me). SO when soemone take my ideas and makes a few minor changes that would tick me off.
NOW if someone took my idea and manged to make it load ina 1/3 teh time be heigher quality and sell 10times as much product and look vastyly different but based it off my idea, taht is called progress.
If someone were to take a 1984 40' beak boat and pull a mold off it and resell it as a Sper HappyTime Special Boat that is thievery. Be just like stealing a websiet and hcnaging teh logo. But if they pulle dtah mold added 3 step moved the cabin forward and added 5 inches of headroom, removed the beak and set it up for tripples in stead of twins then there is a major change and that is progress. Not a splash.
Splashing is illegal and doe snotfallunder teh term of legitimate bussiness and certainly isn' honest or upstanding bussiness.
I think pullnig a mold from an existing hull with out paying for it isn't too bad IF you plan on making major improvments to it. BUT pulling a miold and selling it as knock of is ****ty.
Reguardless if the morality of it the stigma of knock off being of lesser quality tht the origonal is pretty obvious. Why woudl tehy make an illegal; copy of the hull and produce a duplicate? Simple to sell boat and cut out the cost of R&D. So automatically this sets up teh biulder ina position of tryign to save money by cuttina MAJOR corner. I say its cutting acorner becasue new hulls are evolutions of design sometimes you modify last years design and it suck so you start over agian. All eth while you learn about the quirks of the product, how to tuine it, how to rig it, You learn about your own invention. This is very important in design. Hell even in web design (software engineering, is engineering) taht important. Butr back to my point the biulder is alrady tryign to save money SO at what point ar etehy willing to stop? Well maybe instead of using balsa core they use half balsa half pine from home depot. Maybe thethin thier gelcote out a little more to use 5 gallosn instead of 6.
I am not sayign this is the case for all biulder but its certainly raises such questions.
FYI please lets nt get this all nasty. Open free discusion. The last page was a slap fest between you too. If you want to present your opinions (biased or not) please do it civily. No need to throw mud.
FYI you were just repremanded by the youngest member of oso Lets keep it clean.
Barney you keep refferring to "honest bussinessman" if they were honest whhy woulnd;t they contact the manufacturer of an existing hull (weather in production or not) and see what teh deal with producing it would be. Maybe the designer woudl sell them the origonal molds maybe they woudl just say who cares feel free maybe they might ask for asmall royalty fee. Point is if the biulder was honest the would ask permission first.
I know if someone ganked my website and changed the logo and called it thier that woudl piss me off big time and rightfully so I spend a lot of time and energy developing a produc that reflect my skills, tastes, and personality (my buissiness is just me). SO when soemone take my ideas and makes a few minor changes that would tick me off.
NOW if someone took my idea and manged to make it load ina 1/3 teh time be heigher quality and sell 10times as much product and look vastyly different but based it off my idea, taht is called progress.
If someone were to take a 1984 40' beak boat and pull a mold off it and resell it as a Sper HappyTime Special Boat that is thievery. Be just like stealing a websiet and hcnaging teh logo. But if they pulle dtah mold added 3 step moved the cabin forward and added 5 inches of headroom, removed the beak and set it up for tripples in stead of twins then there is a major change and that is progress. Not a splash.
Splashing is illegal and doe snotfallunder teh term of legitimate bussiness and certainly isn' honest or upstanding bussiness.
I think pullnig a mold from an existing hull with out paying for it isn't too bad IF you plan on making major improvments to it. BUT pulling a miold and selling it as knock of is ****ty.
Reguardless if the morality of it the stigma of knock off being of lesser quality tht the origonal is pretty obvious. Why woudl tehy make an illegal; copy of the hull and produce a duplicate? Simple to sell boat and cut out the cost of R&D. So automatically this sets up teh biulder ina position of tryign to save money by cuttina MAJOR corner. I say its cutting acorner becasue new hulls are evolutions of design sometimes you modify last years design and it suck so you start over agian. All eth while you learn about the quirks of the product, how to tuine it, how to rig it, You learn about your own invention. This is very important in design. Hell even in web design (software engineering, is engineering) taht important. Butr back to my point the biulder is alrady tryign to save money SO at what point ar etehy willing to stop? Well maybe instead of using balsa core they use half balsa half pine from home depot. Maybe thethin thier gelcote out a little more to use 5 gallosn instead of 6.
I am not sayign this is the case for all biulder but its certainly raises such questions.
FYI please lets nt get this all nasty. Open free discusion. The last page was a slap fest between you too. If you want to present your opinions (biased or not) please do it civily. No need to throw mud.
FYI you were just repremanded by the youngest member of oso
Lets keep it clean.
__________________
Pardon me, while I whip this out!
Pardon me, while I whip this out!
03-16-2002, 08:29 AM
#90
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John at Lightning PowerBoats
Hi thread My name is John Christensen,owner of Lightning Power Boats,And you bet we do pop,Splash or what ever you want to call it,the common mistake you people are assuming is that a pop is not as good as the original,well ( MY Opinion) you need to look at one before you judge !I used to build a copy of (BK)'s husban's Mirage 18 ',he did a great job and I feel built a great boat,I've been told I build as good of boat,now look at the new owner of mirage boats,first off he dosen't even build his own boats,he has another company build them for him,and they are built outof the cheepest resins,cut up plywood,for coreing,and chopp,Im sorry my worse boat I've ever built was not built that bad,I don't need to bad mouth anyone else's boats to make me look good,Im just trying to make a point,If what I do was illegal,I would be in jail,guess what,Never been hope to never go,sounds like a bad place,75% of the molds I have are pops of other boats that i have changed in one way or another,And I do build a good boat not the best but never the less a good boat,you don't have to like pop's or splashes,but don't put them down till you judge for yourself ,HI wish fast and safe boating to all. John
