BAJA WILL

Endlesssummer,

You just showed your lack of knowledge, I have been to both Baja and Fountain. You do not know what you are talking about. Fountain showed me the actual mold they were using, where they were laying up, notified me at all stages/rigging of my boat being built and did custom exterior. The day I picked it up, Reggie himself did the prop testing on it in Little Washington, if its a production boat every boat made it a production boat

WILL

Jana

Further on the Fountain thing - I toured the plant too, and I don't remember any chopper guns. They told me everything is hand-laid and I'll be danged if I can find any chopped strand in my Fever. Also, the first Fountains were derived from Excalibers that Reggie was working with. Where'd Chris Craft get into the mix?

Steve 1

Jana First off There is Chopped Strand Mat in your Fountain Right behind the Gelcoat, And before the First Structural Laminate Don’t be fooled by the terms Like Hand –Laid or all by Hand (the Worst of the lot Reason Simple Hand batching Allows for drift in the curing mechanism) or Mechanized hand lay-up IE: Chopper Gun (Depends on the Operator and not Seen in High Performance) Or Pressure fed roller (the preferred method), In the Shop we call these Layers of Mat the Skin-Out ,The front Office and Engineering call this Check Mat,By the way It is made by chopper guns on a conveyer belt and a Binder is added and the material is rolled in a neat ready to use package

In closing there is nothing used in a fountain that is not in every Boat shop on Earth

Best Regards

Steve 1

Damm near forgot what the post was about ! A few years back at the Miami Beach Show We counted 26 Variants of the Old 23' Formula A boat that had a Terrible ride to begin with,And it was Propagated so many times,By so many People God Help Us.LOL

Best Regards

When does Darwin's Law take effect??

T2x

Thank you BK........ I feel like I've died and gone to fibreglass boat heaven. Finally, the rotten mildewed affects of thousands of pop craft are seeing the revealing light of day. Steve clearly detailed it with his Formula example. If the naive boat consumer only knew the chain of theivery that led to so many of today's boats, we might create a ground swell of indignation sufficient to blow the "Crap mongers" out of the business. This has sickened me from the first time I got a look at a still well known, Ohio performance boat builder's splash of a 16' Glastron in the 1960's........ or, the Sidewinder, a then popular California boat builder's simultaneous splash of that same Glastron hull. This goes back a long way for me.

The fact that we were also "popped" as well some years later, only served to fan the flames. The real victims here, as I said, are the consumers who honestly believe they have (and paid good money for) something "Special", when , in fact, all they have is "Old wine in new bottles"....... bottles that are not as good as the originals.

Most of the OSO members know who the offenders are, but many don't want to admit it. Good taste prohibits listing the offending builders, but suffice it to say they are the vast majority. Unfortunately, the list of actual original designs and plugs....is much shorter.

I don't know why I keep hammering on this subject other than continuing this thread might open a few more eyes and defeat a few more lies.

Caveat Emptor

T2x

BK

Great reply, T2x.

I knew that splashing was becoming more and more common, but I never felt the industry would become so numb, that builders would eventually be bragging that they are in business as splashers. Splashing popular current boat models - taking someone's design and calling it yours. I mean seriously, how can you brag about that? Isn't that theft?

I've known some great builders and designers over the years, and have friends who collect boat company brochures and posters that are 20-30 years old. There are some, but not many brochures featuring truly "innovative" designs in recent years. It will be great when those days come back and designs can be identified to the artist who actually designed it.

This splashing mess should have been addressed by legislation long ago, before it ever got this far out of control. But I'm just happy to see there is a new law - I guess it's better late than never.

Havasu Barney

BK, are you still upset that the quality and price you wanted for a boat would not stand up in the market?

You talk so much **** about all this work you have done, these great designs that were stolen as a cause for you sitting home complaining about people making an honest living.

BK

Wrong Barney. Our boats were (And still are) extremely high in quality. At one point we had 5 splashing companies trying to sell exact splashes of our product, and 3 never made it past the first year. And one even apologized years later for what he had done.

I just wish we would have had a law back then that could have ended the thefts altogether. But we had to continue on with business, fair or not. And we still did well, despite the obstacles we had.

Barney - I know you are fairly new to the boating world - and I know you feel Liberator is the best company in the world. I also know you feel splashing is just fun and games. But I've been around people who design boats all my life -- and they put total heart and soul into a design -- to splash and take what they've created is like tearing at their heart with a dull knife. Brutal.

When we sold the company, we did just fine. We had three offers within 6 months - those years of honest hard work built a fine name that we could be proud of. Thankfully, the company was sold to a man who was an honest person too -- who purchased the company design rights -- molds too.

He could have splashed us easily, but he didn't. He did the right thing. Very upstanding man in these times, and I wish him all the best.

Havasu Barney

Fairly new and still in the marine business BK, not just talking down somebody else's product.

BK's critics have been silenced on other boards and I have very little respect for her attempts to harm peoples business by talking down thier products.

Too Old, this LITTLE POLITICAL BATTLE HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR WELL OVER A YEAR.

Sorry bout those caps....

And no BK, this is not about any particular company, it's about principle.

Boating manufacturers have been sharing desins and hull molds since the beginning of the industry.

Design innovations or ideas are something that can NOT be unlearned. So if somebody wants to change a design or inprove the quality of their boat, so be it.

If a builder has a design that has been on the market and it is legal to make a copy, perhaps improve some charateristics, if it is legal, I feel there is nothing wrong with it.

I'm sick and tired of BK and others in the marine indusrty attempting to keep the consumer mis-informed about quality of construction by using some bull**** like saying the original is better quality than the copy.

It is simply not true.

BK

Barney -

For your information, I have never mentioned ANY splasher company by name. When I post about splashing those names sometimes start appearing, in subsequent messages by others.

I merely talk about the act of splashing a design and what most people think about it -- no real changes, but a direct splash -- where you can't even tell the copy from an original - also known as theft of design.

If you automatically equate this act to any particular company, it's not because I've ID'd them.

And yes ~ I am not in this business anymore, but will always be rooting for the companies who actually are in business to design boats the lawful way. If they do use a plug of another, the only respect they'll get is if they add thier own design and change it so much you will never be able to tell where it came from. The end product better look much different than the original.

I'll always be happy to watch the success of those honest businessmen who have the know-how and skill, and are brave enough to risk offering new designs to the boating world.