Splashing Hulls: Right or Wrong?
03-21-2002, 11:44 AM
#181
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Hey Mod-VP 22
Stoker came out with their 22 in '87 or '88. The boat had a bad porpoise in the beginning. Then about 6 years later Mirage came out with a 22' pointy nose porpoise machine. Stoker stretched their 20 ft mod-VP hull. How did Mirage come up with their pointy nose mod-vp after producing a completely different style hull for years? Is it a Stoker pop...I don't think so but it's pretty damn close and was chasing the same market. I suppose that is fair. I would argue that protractors and tape measures can accomplish the same thing as pops. Open your eyes folks stealing from 3 or 4 designs is just as bad as popping one.
David
David
03-21-2002, 12:11 PM
#182
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You are so ignorant, Liquid fly.
The pointy-nose Mirage was actually designed by Stolarz who then sold the mold to Howard over a decade ago. It is nothing like a Stoker. Howard moved on to bigger boats and put the molds up for sale. We PURCHASED the mold and made our own changes.
This is how legitimate REAL boat companies improve on ideas.
Yes = We COULD have gone the road of theives and copied the boat for a lot less money than buying the mold outright, but that would go against our ethics.
As for a "Porpoise Machine" ? The truth is, that hull is still hot -- less than 6 months ago a legitimate boat company just purchased the molds for very handsome price. You've probably never even laid eyes on one so I know your comments are just to raise my ire. But to bring up up to date, you may want to read some of the past performance tests in both Hot Boat and Powerboat. The boat was/is sweet.
It's obvious that you're just making totally bogus remarks to try another character assault against our family, but I think the people in here are too smart to fall for that. Especially our good friend Alan Stoker.
PS:
"Real boat companies undergo performance tests"
The pointy-nose Mirage was actually designed by Stolarz who then sold the mold to Howard over a decade ago. It is nothing like a Stoker. Howard moved on to bigger boats and put the molds up for sale. We PURCHASED the mold and made our own changes.
This is how legitimate REAL boat companies improve on ideas.
Yes = We COULD have gone the road of theives and copied the boat for a lot less money than buying the mold outright, but that would go against our ethics.
As for a "Porpoise Machine" ? The truth is, that hull is still hot -- less than 6 months ago a legitimate boat company just purchased the molds for very handsome price. You've probably never even laid eyes on one so I know your comments are just to raise my ire. But to bring up up to date, you may want to read some of the past performance tests in both Hot Boat and Powerboat. The boat was/is sweet.
It's obvious that you're just making totally bogus remarks to try another character assault against our family, but I think the people in here are too smart to fall for that. Especially our good friend Alan Stoker.
PS:
"Real boat companies undergo performance tests"
03-21-2002, 12:23 PM
#183
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As it turns out
I spoke with Liberator yesterday, back in 93-94 Mr. Collins brought a Stoker by Dave's shop in order to help with the process of DESIGNING Mirage's brand new 22. hehe
Mr. Collins was unable to afford assistance and took his Stoker down the road to greener pastures, I presume.
Also, I come to find out there is still an ongoing battle between Lee's and the Collins' regarding some of the finer points of those "original Mirage designs", hmmmmm I wonder if the truth will ever be known...... ahhh the futility! (I would like to credit C_Spray for the partial use of his line
)
Did you say ALL Mirage's were original Collins designs BK?
Or is it possible they were pirated from an employee who was never compensated?
This is a very educational thread!
Mr. Collins was unable to afford assistance and took his Stoker down the road to greener pastures, I presume.
Also, I come to find out there is still an ongoing battle between Lee's and the Collins' regarding some of the finer points of those "original Mirage designs", hmmmmm I wonder if the truth will ever be known...... ahhh the futility! (I would like to credit C_Spray for the partial use of his line
)Did you say ALL Mirage's were original Collins designs BK?
Or is it possible they were pirated from an employee who was never compensated?
This is a very educational thread!
03-21-2002, 12:26 PM
#184
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David,
The 22 foot Mirage Trinity was derived from a hull mold the former owners of Mirage purchased from Howard Boats. This Mold was was then re-tooled by the owner of Mirage. Then, the owner of Mirage built his own deck molds for the Trinity from scratch. You may want to get your facts right, because if you've ever seen the bottom of a 22 Trinity and a 22 Stoker, you'd notice a large difference. On top of that, the Trinity is a deeper hull, and a bit longer, almost 23 feet, measuring at 22'10". Interestingly enough, Alan Stoker (owner and designer of Stoker) and Brad Collins (former owner and designer of the Mirage Trinity) are good friends. So why would someone splash his friends' hull design and still be on good terms.
Then again, you don't have to believe me, you could alwyas give Alan a ring at John's Cutsom Marine, (714)827-7920, or at www.stokerboats.com
The 22 foot Mirage Trinity was derived from a hull mold the former owners of Mirage purchased from Howard Boats. This Mold was was then re-tooled by the owner of Mirage. Then, the owner of Mirage built his own deck molds for the Trinity from scratch. You may want to get your facts right, because if you've ever seen the bottom of a 22 Trinity and a 22 Stoker, you'd notice a large difference. On top of that, the Trinity is a deeper hull, and a bit longer, almost 23 feet, measuring at 22'10". Interestingly enough, Alan Stoker (owner and designer of Stoker) and Brad Collins (former owner and designer of the Mirage Trinity) are good friends. So why would someone splash his friends' hull design and still be on good terms.
Then again, you don't have to believe me, you could alwyas give Alan a ring at John's Cutsom Marine, (714)827-7920, or at www.stokerboats.com
03-21-2002, 12:34 PM
#186
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Barney -
If indeed Liberator said these things, which I seriously do not believe they did, they are outright lies. There has never, ever been a Stoker boat in our possession.
As far as us going for outside help with designing a new boat, Liberator is last on our list. But there is a plug builder nearby with amazing skills, but I'm sure you've never heard of him. Because he only builds originals.
The poll must really have you upset, Barney. It's driving you and Liquid Fly into a frenzied state of defensive fabrication. Wish you could fabricate a boat as well as you fabricate stories.
This was expected - it is what you always resort to when your pants are being pulled down.
If indeed Liberator said these things, which I seriously do not believe they did, they are outright lies. There has never, ever been a Stoker boat in our possession.
As far as us going for outside help with designing a new boat, Liberator is last on our list. But there is a plug builder nearby with amazing skills, but I'm sure you've never heard of him. Because he only builds originals.
The poll must really have you upset, Barney. It's driving you and Liquid Fly into a frenzied state of defensive fabrication. Wish you could fabricate a boat as well as you fabricate stories.
This was expected - it is what you always resort to when your pants are being pulled down.
Last edited by BK; 03-21-2002 at 12:39 PM.
03-21-2002, 12:39 PM
#187
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Now BK
Originally posted by BK
Barney -
If indeed Liberator said these things, which I seriously do not believe they did, they are outright lies. There has never, ever been a Stoker boat in our possession.
As far as us going for outside help with designing a new boat, Liberator is last on our list. But there is a plug builder nearby with amazing skills, but I'm sure you've never heard of him.
I do not believe this was an actual conversation you had with Liberator.
Instead, I believe you and Liquid Fly are in a serious state of defensive fabrication.
This is what you always resort to when your pants are being pulled down.
Barney -
If indeed Liberator said these things, which I seriously do not believe they did, they are outright lies. There has never, ever been a Stoker boat in our possession.
As far as us going for outside help with designing a new boat, Liberator is last on our list. But there is a plug builder nearby with amazing skills, but I'm sure you've never heard of him.
I do not believe this was an actual conversation you had with Liberator.
Instead, I believe you and Liquid Fly are in a serious state of defensive fabrication.
This is what you always resort to when your pants are being pulled down.
But I am glad we are beginning to talk about skills we DO posses!
03-21-2002, 12:42 PM
#188
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If I would have allowed you to pull MY pants down, you would be addressing me, yes sir, no sir.
But I am glad we are beginning to talk about skills we DO posses!
But I am glad we are beginning to talk about skills we DO posses!
I'm aware of your fantasies, Barney.
Ive seen the X-rated "BK" cartoons on your site
See you in your dreams, Barn.
Last edited by BK; 03-21-2002 at 12:44 PM.
03-21-2002, 12:47 PM
#189
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Your right BK
Let's quit the BS right here, right now!
I'll meet you in Denver in 2 days! (That's about halfway right?)
or if you perfer,
The weather's getting pretty nice here in your old stomping grounds!
Now how come you never stopped by during your last visit?
My shop is less than a mile from Dave Kobers house.....
I'll meet you in Denver in 2 days! (That's about halfway right?)
or if you perfer,
The weather's getting pretty nice here in your old stomping grounds!
Now how come you never stopped by during your last visit?
My shop is less than a mile from Dave Kobers house.....
03-21-2002, 12:49 PM
#190
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I heard Powerplay in Holland, MI started their business by splashing the Chris Craft Scorpion. I have to laugh because I was working on a '86 Scorpion yesterday and we pulled the entire floor out to remove the dry rot. I hope Powerplay (now Powerquest) didn't splash the inside of the boat cause they too would be destined for failure.
