Hey..... potential boat mag "guru." Read it again. God gave you two eyes and one keyboard.

Wow, Midocean, lighten up.

Never claimed guru status. Just some experience in the magazine world, newspapers and (yuck) trade magazines before that.

Read this entire thread several times. What did I miss, exactly?

To a degree, I actually echoed the sentiments of the other person on this thread who has some publishing experience.

Db71, no offense intended if any was taken. Follow your heart and your ambition. But reading through this, and having a little experience in the magazine and newspaper publishing field, I just offered my take.

Db71,

One more thing before MidOcean jumps down my throat ... "flooding" newsstands is really expensive and, if you don't have the correct "sell through" for a given outlet, they bump you. It's just plain ugly.

As for what you feel about new-boat sales driving in boating magazines, it simply isn't correct, or hasn't been proven correct. Every "lifestyle" publication in the boating world, from Voyaging (yachts) to Xtreme Boats (high-perf) eventually, after saying it wouldn't, had to include new boat evaluations, previews, "Boath of the Month" or some other way to get new boats into their pages. Why?

Because there simply isn't enough aftermarket advertisiing, and forget non-endemic ads because boating mags don't have the circulation to make the cut for those guys like, to support a boating magazine without the boat builders throwing in. And they want you, the publisher, to showcase their products.

The car magazine comparision doesn't work because car magazines thrive on non-endemic advertising, mean ads not related to automobiles. Want to find a major Lexux ad campaign. Don't look at Car and Driver. Check out Vanity Fair.

Anyway, contrary to what Midocean might have you believe I don't claim to have the answers. But I've been around long enough to have learned a couple of things, and I hope they help you.

You know what might work for you rather than print with your idea? An electronic weekly newsletter, which would eliminate production costs and circulation costs.

Best of luck.

Matt,

Take a pill! I was telling DB to re-read your post... as in--you have more mag experience than anyone on these boards... I thought it incredibly arrogant and stupidly naive for him to question your advice... I was calling him the GURU.. sarcastically of course..

Sorry you took it the wrong way. You know I respect your position in the industry/ sport.

T

Thank you for calling me arrogant and stupidly niave.

The title of this thread is idea. I asked opinions and got some what I have learned is this:

If there was a mag like this there are people who would buy it.

Startup expenses may be more than expected(as with anyhting)

Some other people have tried similar things and it did not work out (there could be many reasons for this but they probaly come down to one not enough capital)

Advertising dollars are the biggest thing. Getting them and keeping them will make or break you.

All I'm trying to say about PB is they are not going to be making a bunch of changes to their system. They do not have the flexibility to change drastically at this point in existance (like the saying if it is not broke don't fix it) They are not going to change their formats or drasticallly change their advertisers or anything else for thst matter.

If you started a new format where fixing boats is the theme and you went after advetisers in this area like engine builders upholstry guys, oil companies, parts manufacturers, wholesalers etc. You could find advertisers.

If you did a build up and advertised the parts in the buildup everything from paint, glass and resin to engine parts, stereo, seats, batteries, and everything else. Maybe one boat you use this company-wholesaler-manufacturer and next boat different people.

People who buy boat magazines are consumers of other products evey person is so why you cannot advertise watches and suits in PB is beyond me. Skip can sell watches and shirts to his customers and many more so they obviously buy them. I bet over half of the people who buy powerboat have a car that could be considered luxury so why can't lexus or MB advertise there. PB should be able to fill their pages with advertisers not from the boat industry and maybe now is the time for them to make some magical deals to those companies to get them in the mag.

As for my idea the non boat advertisers would be a different type company companies like hand cleaners, tools, lawn mowers, etc you know stuff the DIY use.

I would be willing to guarantee that if I made a magazine based on DIY projects I could get advertisers( I may have to give them some free spots but I will get them then after I would get them I would be able to produce a number of leads they generated from my magazine and then be able to fit them into an advertising program that helps their company grow (no matter how big or small).

I owned a company that used to spend $30,000 to $50,000 a month to advertise locally. Now in saying that I understand there are some differences between local and national advertising. I will tell you if I did not have proven results and a certain lead cost I would not spend my money with you. Most of my reps when I told them I got nothing or not the lead cost I wanted would make excuses and then give me some line about how advertising takes time and chevrolet advertises everywhere. I called bs to these people hands down the best money I ever spent came in print ads.

AS I SAID BEFORE I AM NOT AN EDITOR, PUBLISHER, WRITER, PHOTOGRAPHER OR ANYTHING ELSE RELATED TO THE PRODUCTION OF A MAGAZINE. But I can get the advertisers and keep them (maybe at an initial cost) and I can find people to do the other stuff.

One of the top performance boating magazine experts in the country laid out the entire business in a few easy to understand paragraphs and you told him he was wrong and said that you thought there was an editorial market for project boats. He explained to you why that business model( although I don't really think you have one) was probably not going to work and he did it with a humble heart and the patience of a saint. I'm sorry DB, but i think that is arrogant considering the company you are challenging.

Who is going to advertise in your mag? How much capital to you have to start this venture? What is your business/ publishing background?

I think everyone here would love nothing more than to see you make it and promote our sport in to a waiting world. I would just find it insulting if I were Matt, who graciously took his time, to have to read that "you knew better."

God help ya man.

T.

I've known the Nordskog family for two generations and I can tell you that if it can be done, they would be doing it. Their tenacity and persistence makes them a leader in almost any enterprise they attempt.

Your cross marketing ideas sound interesting but you are forgetting one very valuable point. Potential demographics. How long are you going to float these guys with free ads before the numbers rise. How many boat project guys are there? Having previously owned one of the largest Insurance Salvage/ project boat mitigation firms in the SE, I can tell you that market is shrinking... and shrinking fast. Boats that used to bring 10 to 12 k are now worth negative money... thats right... you have to pay people to take them away. I sold out in June and glad to have done so.

Food for thought.. try looking at wooden boat mag. It's probably the closest thing there is to what you're talking about.

Back to Potential Demographics. When I was the President of OPBRA, the oldest offshore racing association in the world, I used to beat my head against the wall trying to get people to sign onto our projects. People like John Crouse and Harry Shcoal tried to explain that the market isn't that big but I was Stupidly naive and arrogant.. We are a niche and it is what it is. The general public just cant relate to what we do.

Look at the producers of Miami Vice who felt compelled to cut the Offshore Racing scenes from their theatrical release.... why? because the focus groups just didn't get it. Those scenes tested badly.

This is not a consumer supported sport. This is a member supported sport. It is what it is.

T

First, my bad, Michael (Midocean). I've taken a chill pill ... OK, in the form of a glass of wine. To be followed by another before I take my 12-year-old daughter, my girlfriend and her 6-year-old daughter bowling (what was I thinking) later.

At the start of this thread I said liked db72's enthusiasm. I still do. And my advice or observation is far from the final word on magazines. What I do know:

1. The marine industry has taken a beating.
2. Our segment of the industry has taken a beating.
3. Print media is taking a beating.

There is a notion that print is taking a beating in terms of reduced advertising revenues because the Internet is taking those dollars. Not so. Those dollars simply are not being spent--anywhere. If they were all going online, this site would be flush with display ads. It's not.

While print is being heavily challenged by the Internet (and after 10 years of managing Boats.com's editorial, plus launching speedonthewater.com as part of BoaterMouth.com, I am huge believe in the Internet), print is not dead.

So db71, if you really believe in your vision, go for it. Yeah, it will suck if you fail. But it will suck even more if you don't try and wonder if you could have succeeded.

But to save a small fortune (because if you start with a large one and open a print magazine with your business/publishing model I'm afraid that's what you'll end up with), I suggest doing something online.

Best of luck.

Ok so cross promoting obviously gieco feels there is a market obviously Anheiser Busch did there are other products that do and maybe some companies products that have not been presented with the right situation. The general public is in awe and with powerboats just take one up to your local gas station and see how many comments you get (maybe not in Florida or SoCal but the rest of the country.

There is a car magazine for JDM product which are Mainly nissan parts if that is not a smal group compared to performance boaters what is There are about 5 magazines for import cars modifications on any newstand I go to right now and there are more boats in my town than rice burners.

This is an idea Obviously for every idea there are 10 (probably more like 100) people who say it will never work to every one that does. There are people here who say they would read it so there is an interest I think this site has something like 30,000 members Don't know for sure.

The business I do now there is no one in the stae of IL doing it I make plenty of money at it but there where and are people who tell me it would not work and it is not sustainable.

You say the internet is the future I do not see many more people joining this site or others just like it with the same content. People may join but it will be 25% or less than what is here now.

We could discuss this all day. I will definatly agree that the boat biz is tight margins or loss. I do believe that there is a market for a different format than what PB has to offer with the subscribers and the advertisers. You yourself said the market is changing so maybe the market for magazines is changing also.

In my experience people who have done the same thing for 20+ years usually don't change formats or direction (as they should not if it is not broke don't fix) But that does not mean that something different could not work.

Midocean,

Matt told me why he thinks this would not work gave me some examples of magazines one who has already came on here and said they where undercapitalized. Now I said the market has changed since these people tried it (everyone knows that) other variables have also changed companies may be looking for new ways to get new customers and save money times are different. I do not feel that this is a reason to insult me etc. You just published a book when people are saying that ebooks are the way of the future so I would say we agree that print is not dead.

I do not know how serious I am about this but the more I get told it would not work the more I feel I have to try it. (I have failed before so it would not crush my spirit to bad) but I will say I would probably sell everything I own before I would throw in the towel on something that I commited to.

Geico and anheiser bush pay/ paid almost nothing for their sponsorships. Pepsi/ Mtn Dew paid NOTHING for their sponsorship of Joey Podavano. Thats the deal.... these guys put a big name on the boat... gives them notoriety and the hopes of getting sponsorship down the road..... the numbers never work... money never happens. AGAIN... offshore is a member supported sport/ not sponsor supported or consumer supported. ie... without the deep pockets of boat owners, this sport would never happen..

Sorry DB, you are wrong about book publishing... E-book sales account for .6% of the market... down .7% from last year... 2000 new books hit the streets every DAY. PW(publishers weekly) reports that book publishing is one of the top ten sectors in the American economy.

Comparing a book to a magazine... two different markets... two totally different buyers. Unlike a mag, a book is an investment of time, thought and imagination for the reader and a trophy to go on a book shelf when they are done..... and that, in a nutshell, is what the e-book/ kindle/ etc. producers are having a hard time accepting. This is why the cover of a book is just as important as the 100,000 words inside.

Books... Movies... safe bets, even in this shaky economy.