There's an old Indian saying, "he speaks with shadows on his tongue". Every time I read one of your posts I know less than I did before. You have a gift for speaking with shadows. :party-smiley-004:

[QUOTE=Comanche3Six;3163962] Turbine Marine's product is the high end of the Offshore Powerboat spectrum.QUOTE]

Isn't that what u said in an other post regarding MCMANUS ???:lolhit:

Where u ever at the shop your talking of ??....just say'n..:party-smiley-004:

I am looking forward to seeing JBS Racing and Miss Geico doing battle on the St. Clair River this weekend. Good luck to both Teams and have a safe race.

Turbines are no fun...too many parts going all in the same direction.

I'm surprised to see the turbines last as long as they did. I've flown and maintained helicopters for 22 yrs and have done a lot of work on T53 L13 and L701 engines. The main cause of failure (mechanical) being governor failures. In aircraft the power output is fairly constant, but with these boats constantly going in and out of the water (loading and unloading the props) I would think you'd wear out the governor in no time and have a turbine overspeed which usually results in parts being flung all over the place at a high velocity. But as I said earlier I deal with aircraft and don't have a clue how these are setup in the boats. Come to think of it, every year I realize I know less and less about aircraft!:lolhit:

tick tock is JBS going to stclair I hope so would make for a great show

The n2 Governor or in your pilots term Droop compensator
are safety wired in full positions. (locked wide open).
Throttling is accomplished via n1 gas producer.

Failures are such as FOD, or exceeding pyro temperatures.

Working with anything mechanical keeping cold
Coronas in the fridge goes along way:drink:

Geico runs in a class by themselves because nobody steps up to challenge them. Some people appear and run a race here and there, or a radar run or shootout or whatever you want to call it, but nobody can compete with them on a regular basis. I commend the Geico team for that. Teams come and teams go, yet the Geico crew is always there. IMO, they are great for the sport

The n2 Governor or in your pilots term Droop compensator
are safety wired in full positions. (locked wide open).
Throttling is accomplished via n1 gas producer. KNOT-RIGHT


Can you explain that in layman's terms? Does the N1 gas producer keep the engines from overspeeding when the props are out of the water? We've all seen Miss Geico out of the water many times but the motors don't seem to mind. Maybe it's Mongo's magic throttle arm? :D

thats one way to look at it???

how long you think they would last with out the 2 mill from geico?

it's easy to OUT "compete" someone when you have a biggest wallet.

stick some Lambo's in the mystic and run heads up agianst Qatar and see how much they like too "compete".

frankenstein go back and read some of the old articles about racing. Haggin joined WPPA and was going to run class one, but only if they let him run his 1450 hp turbine agianst the 930 hp piston motors. when they said no, he didn't go cause he didn't want to play by the rules.

this is why extreme class is destroying offshore racing. but hea this is just my opinion. i'm sure the TV will make it look like real racing.

TV can capture semi exciting video of all the boats, unfortunately losing a lot of the speed they operate at in the process (telephoto lense compression and helicopter POV's at the matching speeds). TV can interview all the racers (hoping to capture something that people other than the racers and their immediate friends and relatives think is interesting, humorous or both). TV can drive up the volume and emphasis with announcers using colorful phrases and "rah, rah" bombasts.

Sadly.... Even TV can't perform miracles.

I agree that the turbine class is a bad idea and that the sport is not helped by any team that avoids competition by entering unique, unaffordable, and extraordinarily exclusive equipment.

T2x

I'm not going to argue with your thought, because plenty of people believe that true. However, the Extreme class represents the tipping point to bring a whole new class of spectators into the fold.

NASCAR has a huge following, but consider some of these differences:
paved, angled track
crowd within feet of the action
every car on the track is relatively mechanically identical (you know what I mean)
A core of competitive racers is at every race for their fans to see.

Considering the offshore racers don't run on professionally paved roads and fly with boats of different classes on the track, the sport needs something to emerge that draws people everywhere. Whining turbines and insane speeds do the job.

Question is, does offshore racing change to where everyone runs 50' turbine hulls or do they end up with the final race of the weekend being turbine extreme. . . "The race you've all been waiting for?"

Just my 2 cents.

BUt if I recall correctly, didn't GEICO remove the super turbines from their Mystic and install the same as everyone else to increase competition?

If the sanctioning body would standardize the Turbine Etreme class, we would hear less about the lack of competition and more about the capabilities of the team, crew and operators, like NASCAR.

If I may make one more comment on the Turbine Extreme class: It is like Rap music, you may not like it but it is here to stay and the popularity is growing. So people can turn the radio off, or turn it up and enjoy. Because the car next to you is blaring it with the windows down.

So maybe we can embrace it and see what it can do for the popularity (and profitability) of our sport.

Nascar and offshore powerboat racing have nothing in common. The sport will never grow until it finds a home. It needs to be gated , ticketed and be an annual event. The money that is blown to tweak egos could of already purchased this land and developed it. Grand Isle , La?

People want to see the Extreme Class Boat or Boats, infact they would probably prefer to see them only. In NASCAR, all the cars are in the same class and they run for about 4 hrs together. Red Bull Air Races, all the planes are in the same class that are flying to bet the others time. Formula 1, the cars are in the same class and so on. In Offshore Powerboat Racing there are many classes and with no disrespect to any of the classes, spectators are not excited to see the smaller classes. They want to see Super Vee, Super Cat Light, Super Cat and Extreme Cat racing around the course. There is no denying that these are the Classes that the spectators come to see and want to see. They want to see speed and hear the roar of the engines, the louder teh better. Unfortunately I doubt that this will ever happen but it should, I can't wait to see JBS Racing and Miss Geico going heads up at St. Clair, it reminds me of the excitement in 2007 when Miss Geico and the Bud Select put on one of the all time best races in Offshore Powerboat Racing at the St. Clair River Classic. Besides the boats, their rig's are also something to see for the spectators.

That is exactly what was said about the old 3 and 4 engine Superboat class.............

Those who do not learn from history ( or are even aware of it) are doomed to repeat it.

Yes....that is true...but if the biggest class were SCL they would not know the difference, see better racing with much more competition and leave the event happier and impressed.....until some guy wanted to race something bigger, better, more costly and different to satisfy his ego and upset the entire equilibrium.....again.

what you or me believe to be true is irrelavant.

fact: the turbine class has been around for the last 3 plus years and to date geico is the only consistant boat in the class due too having deep pockets

apparently the viability of the class and the other extreme boats is unsustanable. therefore something needs to change if we want see actual racing. as for "everyone" coming to see the turbine boat, well thats the hype you call racing. and this is why after several years offshore has gotten nowhere.

next if two extreme boats racing is the best that you have ever seen, thats sucks for you. i've had the chance to see some of the supercat races back several years ago and the current "show" is a sad sight compared to having 10 plus boats in a class. enough boats that that class could go out and put on a race by itself. therefor the spectators understood that all those boats are in the same class and racing each other.

"todays" fan actually think geico and the other extreme boats are racing agianst all the other boats out there. and normally after a short conversation with a newbie the realize how lame that is

SD,

I wont disagree at all. But considering most people who attend the races do not get the proper education about the sport, they are left staring at the race wondering why all those little boats are getting in the way. It is what it is.

I am no racing expert. In fact, I could easily be grouped into the category of a newbie that doesnt have a fun understanding of the history of the sport or the nature of pure competition. But if we simply identify the role of Turbine Extreme as a nuisance that is dilluting the sport, we are missing a bigger picture.

Economies of scale and uniform code will allow more competitors to enter T.E. Right now, GEICO, JBS and AquaMarine pretty much have to form the division themselves and pave the way. It makes the competing teams the defacto sanctioning body of the class. We need to have a set engine package and a deal from manufacturer (or resellers) on pricing for certified race teams. There needs to be money from those people to inspire others to buy them for their own boats. But it takes volume to make it work. And right now, nothing is gelling together. Although, I wouldn't be surprised if GEICO isnt working on some of these criticial needs behind the scenes.

If you look at the rules for OPA and SBI the max speed is limited to 150-155mph at anytime. This should allow piston boats to compete competitively. I believe early on this was P-Extreme class.

I agree spectators want to see the big dogs. Running turbine and piston boats in the 150-160mph speed range would give the fans what they want to not exclude participants.

whats the bigger picture?

there's a difference between a nisance and having unsustainable costs.

Since the N2 (power turbine) governor is set to full open position it is definately "Mongo's Magic Throttle Arm" that keeps the engine from over speeding, especially since a turbine would tend to lag behind rapid throttle movements. (which just gives me that much more respect for those guys)
In layman's terms the engines are actually quite simple. They usually have two sets of turbine wheels. One called the "gas producer" which does nothing more than drive the compressor in the front of the engine and the "power turbine" which drives the prop. (these two sets of turbine wheels have no connection to each other whatsoever which is why they are called a "Free Turbine") The N2 governor controls the speed of the power turbine (prop speed) by changing the speed of the gas producer (compressor). As the prop becomes loaded and begins to slow down the N2 governor senses this, adds more fuel, and speeds up the gas producer (which increases the air flowing through the engine and increases the speed of the power turbine) The opposite is also true for when the prop becomes unloaded (less fuel= less air past the turbine wheels=slower prop) With the governor out of the picture the throttle man has total control of the N1 and N2 speeds (gas producer and power turbine) and must keep an eye on exhaust gas temp, torque, and turbine speeds (times two engines).
I must admit I like the sound of big piston engines in boats more, but in the world of racing power to weight is key. The T53 used in the UH-1 produced about 1400 hp and 1700 ft/lbs of torque all for only 550 lbs (which equals abt 2.5 lbs/hp).
So there's your quick layman's answer...........I think I'm going to pour myself a drink:drink:

To have a sport - do what they do in Europe, less classes and more smaller boats = more boats period. They have heads up racing and people like that, 12 classes here with S's, P's, 6's, 2's & F's (you know what I'm saying here) all running around here is stupid!

I like some here started racing in the early/mid 80's and was there for when the US sport was at it's biggest when near 100 boats could be at a race - it was and still is possible.

If there were no unlimited class boats the veiwers would never know.

I think people/fans related to the 4 engine superboats more than a turbine boat, they made noise, had commonality with the "boat you drive to work everyday" ie NASCAR. A turbine boat is "look at that it's cool" a psiton boat is "hey, I could get those headers or blower for my boat too". Agree, though the costs keep these boats to a min and that hurts everyone else not help them.

In Europe they have more outboard classes, we need that here as well, you have cut the courses down to nothing but a short track oval anyway - race the right boats on them.

Really does anyone think people really want to see 40' cats racing on a 2 mile oval in the middle of a river - the only people that do are the people that own the boats themselves, their familes and some people that come out 1 time to watch and then say "this is boring" - oh I forgot there are 12 additonal people who come out every year because they have nothing else to do!

And all this bracket racing you have today in the lower classes is BS, this will never be NHRA and people do not go to the NHRA events for bracket cars they go for heads up. Bracket racing is more for the racers than the viewers and if what you've done here is for the racers than you got what you wanted - a sport that the public thinks is foolish and doesn't care to watch!

just my 2 cents

To expand on HJ's comments:

I think the speeds of the boats matter relevant to the course size. I don't care if the course is 2,4 or 20 miles. It needs to be spectator friendly.

I could watch 4-6(or more) SVL's race and be fine with it. It it didn't take them FOREVER to circle a long course. Make the races heads-up. Put like speed boats out at the same time(OC and SV) or whatever.

Nothing ruins racing(for me) more than having nothing happening while a 60ish mph boat is 4 miles away running a course. Maybe if the slower boats ran shorter courses you could hold interest. And confine the viewing area.

When the BIG DOGs run, have them run farther and you get the same interest level. Maybe even have MULTIPLE screens set up in the original smaller viewing area.

I could go on but I'll probably get flamed for this anyways.

Cash Bar - well said!

I feel old and cranky and one more ***** - I could take my then 14 yr old son in an APBA JS and race but can't take him in an offshore boat even as a navigator or as we had years ago a "rider" like in PTM Express the fourth guy who was right behind Phil was to wipe his azz I thought (really I would have given anything to be in that spot!!) - if you can't have family involved and start kids early there is no future sport. Look at all the father and sons who have raced, I bet not too many people here can name them all! If we had the little outboard classes or the 24' classes like Charlie was pushing you could get your kids into it as well if the rules changed.

How many 16 or 17 years want to go to a race and watch daddy run the boat? They rather stay home on Xbox or update facebook then sit there like a hump.

Well you sure deserve a drink after all that typing. :eek: :drink: You are the MAN. I'm gonna send it to myself in an email so I can save it for all time. :D

Oh and thank you for taking the time to increase my knowledge of turbines and how they operate. :)

I agree with the 3 or 4 classes idea.But without the big budget guys and a forum for them where would or technology be,straight six tower of power and a plywood boat.

Can anyone tell us about the exploding turbines?

I saw the pics of them in St. Clair??? Did they fix them that quick??? Or are they just displaying the boat???

tubines were fixed boat looked super fast in practice but the gremlins hit again, boat delamed and was unable to race. sure looked like they had somthing for geico.

The Amazing Delaminating Mystic!

We were all hoping and looking forward to the show down between JBS Racing and Miss Geico in St. Clair but delamination spoiled that.

just got home from st.clair,the delam sucked we all wanted to see the two turbins running

is this the second boat that delaminated on JBS???

Mystic needs to rethink its lamination schedule. Building these popcorn raceboats is not helping their reputation.

YUP

Can some post the delam pics ???

What would happen if they actually raced these boats in the ocean? I mean these guys are running on ponds.