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Eat your hearts out turbo's!

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Old 09-24-2010, 05:33 PM
  #171
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Originally Posted by Whipple Charged View Post
Centrifugals actually take more hp to operate then screw's, thats been proven for years. They have slightly less heat, but takes more power when sized equally. There boost is therefore not "easier" on an engine.

Also, there not all going turbo. There's also a reason why many OEM's are actually going away from turbo. Many have exhausted there efforts to get the low end drive-ability you get from a PD style SC. Where are all those OEM centrifugal applications? In 5-10 years, there will be almost a 50/50 mix of new vehicles using PD sc's vs turbo's.

Heads are also not exotic, there very nice big chief style heads and a reasonable camshaft. I'm just not posting that info. Will the motor make over 2000hp? Yup, sure will, since it only took 15psi and Merc's race setup and others are running over 20psi to get near 2000 HP level.

I've never said turbo's won't make more power, thats never been the argument, but centrifugals, sorry, rather have the turbo's.

Furthermore, how many water cooled housings are out there that can produce 2000hp? How's the low end torque on those?
I assume you are referencing auto OEM's (maybe you posting this would quiet down the Whipple fans who keeps telling the turbo guys to stop talking cars haha). If so, you are incorrect. No automotive mfg is "moving away from turbos", and the opposite is true!

In the past most auto applications were NA, with some turbo and SC performance variants. Now, and even more so going forward, smaller turbo variants will be replacing larger NA powerplants. Supercharged motors were and will continue to be a small volume (but all high performance, think LSA/LS9). So, in all turbo volumes will be going up I'd estimate something like 5000% in the next 3 or so years (as percent of powertrains on the market). Auto OEM's are going to be SIGNIFIGANTLY increasing turbo motors and research, nothing with superchargers.

If you meant marine OEM, I apologize for misunderstanding, but assumed as basically no marine OEM's currently turbo none could be going away from.

As this sport evolves, wouldn't it make sense that direct injection turbo motors (of "smaller" displacement) would be the future. Think of Ford's 3.5L turbo motor, that in conservative truck tune, makes 425 ft lbs basically flat from top to bottom of the torque curve. People here talk about "car use" vs a powerboat, but I promise you the way a motor is tested by an OEM far exceeds a boat's abuse, and for waaaaaaaaay longer life than hp boat motors go between rebuilds.

Also, for the guys saying car motors don't apply because they aren't in a boat....is this motor proven in a boat for any endurance yet either? (I believe the answer is not yet)

Overall, this motor is awesome, and if I had the change to go big power right now, I'd be ordering quad rotors.
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Old 09-24-2010, 06:57 PM
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Good job Dustin! Tomcat- good to see you back and what you said is oh so true ! Smitty
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Old 09-24-2010, 07:28 PM
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what would an e-85 tune up do? i am having a small engine built now and my engine builder has convinced me to tune it on e-85....I finally concluded with the extra hp gained that keeping a barrel around was no harder than a barrel of c-16???? great job on the motors
I think at this level, E85 would be worth another 100-200hp with the allowance of timing/boost. Ideally, you would build it with a bit more compression.
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Old 09-24-2010, 07:57 PM
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I assume you are referencing auto OEM's (maybe you posting this would quiet down the Whipple fans who keeps telling the turbo guys to stop talking cars haha). If so, you are incorrect. No automotive mfg is "moving away from turbos", and the opposite is true!

In the past most auto applications were NA, with some turbo and SC performance variants. Now, and even more so going forward, smaller turbo variants will be replacing larger NA powerplants. Supercharged motors were and will continue to be a small volume (but all high performance, think LSA/LS9). So, in all turbo volumes will be going up I'd estimate something like 5000% in the next 3 or so years (as percent of powertrains on the market). Auto OEM's are going to be SIGNIFIGANTLY increasing turbo motors and research, nothing with superchargers.

If you meant marine OEM, I apologize for misunderstanding, but assumed as basically no marine OEM's currently turbo none could be going away from.

As this sport evolves, wouldn't it make sense that direct injection turbo motors (of "smaller" displacement) would be the future. Think of Ford's 3.5L turbo motor, that in conservative truck tune, makes 425 ft lbs basically flat from top to bottom of the torque curve. People here talk about "car use" vs a powerboat, but I promise you the way a motor is tested by an OEM far exceeds a boat's abuse, and for waaaaaaaaay longer life than hp boat motors go between rebuilds.

Also, for the guys saying car motors don't apply because they aren't in a boat....is this motor proven in a boat for any endurance yet either? (I believe the answer is not yet)

Overall, this motor is awesome, and if I had the change to go big power right now, I'd be ordering quad rotors.
I was refering to both. But what do I know, I only work directly with Ford and 2 other OEM's. Turbo's have serious emission issues and in comparison to SC's, a very high cost in the OEM markets. The turbo's are somewhat cheap (most need dual to minimize lag), but the plumbing and everything else is nearly twice the price of a SC at OE levels. Furthermore, OE's haven't been able to meet the 2016 emissions standards and believe me, they're are plenty of SC'd applications that are. Lag is also still an issue, as the motors are going smaller, yet vehicle weights are almost all staying the same, and they've found that they still can't simulate the PD torque curve with the small ci engines without very elaborate controls and turbo's.
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Old 09-24-2010, 08:46 PM
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I assume you are referencing auto OEM's (maybe you posting this would quiet down the Whipple fans who keeps telling the turbo guys to stop talking cars haha).


If you meant marine OEM, I apologize for misunderstanding, but assumed as basically no marine OEM's currently turbo none could be going away from.

Also, for the guys saying car motors don't apply because they aren't in a boat....is this motor proven in a boat for any endurance yet either? (I believe the answer is not yet)

Overall, this motor is awesome, and if I had the change to go big power right now, I'd be ordering quad rotors.
I'll address these parts as they seem to be aimed my way, as I said earlier, if the people that have turbos and can show real numbers and vids of boats thats fine. I"m pretty sure the post above references your comment about car OEMS.
as for this style of motor being proven, yes it has been, many times over, cheif style/pontiac heads have always made big power, however the rebuild time is right in the time frame that dustin provided 75-125 hours, he also said he was running a more mild cam that will be easier on the valve train, i also believe that tomcat addressed the same issue of valve geometry in his post.
once again with the exception of Chief, Brad Smith and Earhardt who else has a turbo motor that is proven?
Also some tech from cars will carry over but we all know boat and car motors are different.
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Old 09-24-2010, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Whipple Charged View Post
I was refering to both. But what do I know, I only work directly with Ford and 2 other OEM's. Turbo's have serious emission issues and in comparison to SC's, a very high cost in the OEM markets. The turbo's are somewhat cheap (most need dual to minimize lag), but the plumbing and everything else is nearly twice the price of a SC at OE levels. Furthermore, OE's haven't been able to meet the 2016 emissions standards and believe me, they're are plenty of SC'd applications that are. Lag is also still an issue, as the motors are going smaller, yet vehicle weights are almost all staying the same, and they've found that they still can't simulate the PD torque curve with the small ci engines without very elaborate controls and turbo's.
Well, I work at GM, have worked at Ford (so know people at both) and have friends in our R&D labs running dyno's all day every day, so I'm pretty sure I'm informed here. For mainstream applications, who is using a SC? Like I said, there are some high performance SC applications (which is where you come in right?), but for fuel consumption reasons turbos are where the development is for the biggest volume of the sales. So, I'm pointing out that turbos are far from being walked away from. You mention Ford, you have heard of ecoboost which they are planning to put in every vehicle right? This is what I mean. I'm all for hearing new supercharged programs Ford (or anyone) is coming out with? If they are, it's high performance, not a volume seller.

Anyone that has driven a modern turbo car (2.0 LNF Cobalt SS or Regal, BMW 335, Ecoboost Ford's) can promise you that lag is not only not noticeable, it is non-existent. I totally agree though it takes very complex electronics and tech (direct injection like I mentioned). This is why it isn't the short term performance boat solution, but the long term one. We as an industry can not invest what auto OEM's can to get the tech and make it affordable. Hence Merc Racing's obscene pricing.

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Old 09-24-2010, 09:32 PM
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I'll address these parts as they seem to be aimed my way, as I said earlier, if the people that have turbos and can show real numbers and vids of boats thats fine. I"m pretty sure the post above references your comment about car OEMS.
as for this style of motor being proven, yes it has been, many times over, cheif style/pontiac heads have always made big power, however the rebuild time is right in the time frame that dustin provided 75-125 hours, he also said he was running a more mild cam that will be easier on the valve train, i also believe that tomcat addressed the same issue of valve geometry in his post.
once again with the exception of Chief, Brad Smith and Earhardt who else has a turbo motor that is proven?
Also some tech from cars will carry over but we all know boat and car motors are different.
I get your logic, makes sense. Just found it a little ironic given this is a dyno run not 100 hrs at full throttle in a boat. This may be a new motor build, but it is proven tech of course. However I believe this is quite a bit more power than similar previous combos, so still not guaranteed to be as reliable? Maybe there are more like this than I thought, but I think they have stated this is one of a kind so not completely vetted just yet.

Either way it is very impressive, I'm just one who thinks turbos will have an increasing role in the future.
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Old 09-24-2010, 10:38 PM
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Either way it is very impressive, I'm just one who thinks turbos will have an increasing role in the future.
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I think the direction for marine engines will be double overhead cam motors with big displacement and direct fuel injection.

Then followed by some form of supercharged induction for the real high HP set-ups. Note: This includes turbos which are a form of supercharged induction.

DOC I think it is the future... push rod technology is stone age. I won't go into that topic as it can go on for pages.

I still would like to know what drive this type of power will be coupled with perhaps someone from Outerlimits will chime in and enlighten us or the owner of the boat.

KAP

P.S. Whippledcharged revive this thread when you get the motor's into the boat and post up the photos it would be bad a zz to see two of those motors in a boat that can handle it. If possible take a lot of photos including the transom.
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Old 09-24-2010, 10:39 PM
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I am definately in the Dustin Whipple fan club...he does tons of research and development for us crazy boaters, and thousands of his superchargers are out there as a testimony that he builds a great product. I am also very aware of his continuing quest to better himself and his product for the marine industry....

Having said that... could you marine turbo guys please post some pictures or dyno runs or boats with big horsepower turbo marine performance engines so the rest of us mere mortals can gauk at them.

I know of one...and will try to find pictures of it...but where are all the high horsepower turbo performance boats that are working so great??

Turbo's have been around a long time...

Please come forth and share... and only performance marine stuff please.

Chris

P.S. I think Dustin went to run these engines in a poker run this weekend.

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Old 09-25-2010, 02:19 AM
  #180
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I'll address these parts as they seem to be aimed my way, as I said earlier, if the people that have turbos and can show real numbers and vids of boats thats fine. I"m pretty sure the post above references your comment about car OEMS.
as for this style of motor being proven, yes it has been, many times over, cheif style/pontiac heads have always made big power, however the rebuild time is right in the time frame that dustin provided 75-125 hours, he also said he was running a more mild cam that will be easier on the valve train, i also believe that tomcat addressed the same issue of valve geometry in his post.
once again with the exception of Chief, Brad Smith and Earhardt who else has a turbo motor that is proven?
Also some tech from cars will carry over but we all know boat and car motors are different.
Rob
Get in touch with Doctor Bob out of Chicago and ask him what he thinks of his turbo engines at are in his redone Cougar. Tommy at Chief built them for him. He has owned both blowers and turbos. See what he thinks.

Big Andy
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