I think its closer to 70K but what setup is less than half that? I like the Xpower because it is light and eliminates the need for a transmission, less space needed in the motor room, more space for the boat. Arnesons are great in the right application, but I would need the dropbox style which are not as bulletproof as the straight ones. There are very few options that can reliably handle 1250+ ftlbs at 2000 rpm, but I am open to suggestions.

Joe here is a close up of the supply and return lines to the engine
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/j...ps72164735.jpg

Same view but zoomed out the painted grey line leaving the back of the filter housing is the return to the cooler
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/j...ps46221905.jpg

This is the FASS lift pump, the blue elbow is from the tank, the line above it goes to the engines (split by a Y), and the line at the back of the housing is the return to the tank, first removes dirt and water, then removes any air and pressurizes the fuel.
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/j...psd543357b.jpg

http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/j...ps2af38cd3.jpg

The plunger pin from inside the aneroid on top of the pump, do you know if there are different versions of these that would fit the pump and make it deliver more fuel?
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/j...i/fffec411.jpg

http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/j...psf4fe4e6c.jpg

This orange boot is the turbo outlet tube to the aftercooler
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/j...psc634fe49.jpg

After discussing my particular EGT temps with several members and diesel tuners, I'm diffidently hitting exhaust side limitations on the turbo. The overall performance is excellent, everywhere but WOT under a heavily fueled tune. It's manageable without the water injection by just selecting a lower hp tune setting, which equals sacrificing about 5mph on top end. There is one size larger A/R housing I'd love to try before looking at bigger turbos. I've also considered shaving the wheel, or adding a waste gate, just need a good turbo guy to pitch in.

Also found that the high RPM coolant temp issue I was experiencing is mostly related to running an open loop cooling system. I recently swapped out 160 thermostats for 190's and lowered the seawater bypass pressure to help build some engine heat and increase normal operating temps to around 180F from 160F. While this greatly helped fuel economy, at WOT it's bypassing too much water and the temps creep up...

Lots of give and take when cranking up these modern diesels far above factory specs in marine use. But what other engine platform can you unlock 150-200 hp without even turning a wrench, using nothing but a laptop...

--
pstorti

are you feeding both engines with that single FASS ?

There is a certain feeling with aluminium... but an Outerlimits SL 44-hull would do the job...
2xengines/trans/drives about 4400 lbs.

I see said the blind man, but we're kind of hijacking this thread and it's really about that beautiful hunk of aluminium! Our discussions have to do with diesels as well and more performance so I apologize for what we're doing but I think it fits in the general catagory of beating the crap out of gas boats in the long run!!!!

A few observations and concepts:

1) The Yanmars have fuel coolers on them not because in a boat like yours you need them, the Yanmars are designed to fit "general" marine applications and many, many cruisier or inboard boats have fuel tanks in the engine room. So the engine heat will help heat the fuel and in time that needs to be cooled off - hence the fuel coolers on your engines. Your tanks I'm guessing are forward of the engines, separated from the engine bay and lieing in the bilge right next to the water keeping the fuel cooler than outside air temp.

2) that FASS pump is the nuts, very cool idea but I see a problem. It's a gear style pump I think(maybe) judging where the motor is mounted, so the FASS pump can pump lots of GPM, you have the pressure cut down and therefore return most of the fuel right to the tank, I'll add heated fuel. A couple degrees adds up over time because if the Delta is 3 degrees as the whole fuel tank rises each cycle of the tank continues to raise by 3 deg until you reach whatever the max is.

3) your Yanmar fuel filter assembly has the return built into it to de-airate the fuel that is why there is a return there. The fact that the return goes through the fuel cooler says to me that your engines uses less than 10% of the fuel delivered to the fuel filter housing the rest is bypassed right back tot he tank and is cooled. That filter hosuing has a mechanism in it to restrict fuel pressure to the fuel injection pump whether it is a spring and ball or a restrictive passage but something says "hey the engine won't use all this fuel and we need to send some back to the tank"

4) I think first you need to have the fuel bypass from the FASS going through your feul cooler, I know in #1 I said the cooler is there for other applications but if there USE IT, the fuel returned from your engine is sooo small it could heat a think. The bulk of your return fuel is from your FASS pump and your filter housing, more from the FASS. Gear pumps under pressure will make heat so I think whatever advantage the cooler is giving you, you are negating it with the FASS pump - plump it through the coolers. YES your engine fuel consumption monitoring will be way off but what's the goal better performance or MPG?

5) to increase pressure to your fuel pump you need to bypass less from the filter housing, you can jack up the FASS pump untill it flows more fuel than the filter head can return which I think you are at that point because like you said "the primer is so hard you can't push it down" but you really need to look at where the pressure drop is? The fuel gauge on the FASS pump does tell you much you need to measure pressure on the line between the fuel filter housing and the fuel pump itself that is the pressure you need to raise.

6) the aneroid controls the amount of fuel delivered during acceleration, once you reach enough boost pressure the aneroid is rendered useless, it does nothing. The aneroid is a pollution control device so you don't make BIG smoke clouds trying to get on plane nothing more than that. What your showing me in that one picture looks like the plunger has a helix cut in it,a spiral curve - does it or is it just the angle?

I'm guessing that plunger where it is threaded on the top goes through some type of diaphram and boost either raise or lowers it- correct? The taper again I'm guessing is what allows the amount of fuel to pass around, the smaller the dia the more fuel the larger dia the less fuel, I don't know that type so I'm guessing but that is what it looks like.

You need to understand when I worked on verisons of things like that it was a simple spring and diaphram connected to a rod that simpley did not let the fuel rack advance because the rack was on a yield link - LOL

Old DDA reference non turbo engines had a solid link bar between governor and "the rack", when they tried to first put some soke limiting on turbo DDA's the solid link bar became a spring loaded bar simpley to allow time for the turbo to spool up - basic yet worked OK.

Do you diesel guys think I,m going to need lift pumps on my 440 yanmar diesels ? I plumbed the fuel lines from the fuel tank to the filter all in # 10AN and from the filter to the mechanical injection pump its #8AN .
I was/am under the inpression that the mechanical injection pump pulls enought fuel ...

I would think you want your water temps to be closer to 200deg? You said lowered the seawater bypass pressure, you mean water is going through the engine faster or slower now? If you are running an open loop meaning seawater in and back out how are you controling air in the engine?

My guess is and I could be dead wrong that water is going through the egine too fast, you are not taking out enough heat and the high temps you see might be steam pockets, again i don't know what you're cooling looks like.

We had similar problems years ago and had to add various vent lines at all the high spots to get air out of the block, remember your cylinder temps are very high, cyl head temps are boiling hot because of your EGT's (that heat is cooking those heads and goes into the water) and the high compression with the turbo makes for cavitation around your cylinders whether there and liners or not the water will still boil around the cylinders from the oscillation that is just a by-product you can't get away from.

Just think about these things sometimes what you're seeing is the result of other forces and that what it appears to be on the surface?

stirling - the fuel injections pumps do not pull any fuel at all, they are a pressurized storage area where fuel is collected before it is forced into the high pressure plunger. All inline plunger and barrel or rotary pumps have lift pumps when you look at a DB-2 (on old 6.9, 7.3 & 5.7) there are actually 3 fuel pumps, supply or lift (externally mounted) suppling a medium pressure vane pump in the DB-2 to supply presure to the rotary plungers for high pressure.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]515469[/ATTACH]
Updated exhaustmanifold with new vent.

Yes that one pump is overkill for the amount of fuel my engines need, but they make the same model capable of flowing up to 260GPH so unless you are putting them on a pair of 2000hp MTU's don't know why you would need more than one, I also tested it with the FASS off and the motors can still pull fuel through it, in case it died, I also changed some of the wiring to marine grade components as the FASS stuff is not made to keep out the salt, I coated the hell out of it with Corrosion X and it still looks brand new. I think it helped my MPG marginally (.1mpg) but it did help a lot with acceleration and 2 mph on top end I was impressed. I would love to have a pair of your engines in my boat the thing would fly!

7075T6 sorry for hijacking your thread, just love anything diesel, and any new tricks I can learn to get some more speed or MPG. The FPT didn't come with an EGT sensor factory installed?

Based on my experience I think you will pleasantly surprised with the results, if not it would be pretty easy to unload on ebay. PM me your number if you want to discuss it more.

No. But just to plug in. Everything ready in the loom.

1) The Yanmars have fuel coolers on them not because in a boat like yours you need them, the Yanmars are designed to fit "general" marine applications and many, many cruisier or inboard boats have fuel tanks in the engine room. So the engine heat will help heat the fuel and in time that needs to be cooled off - hence the fuel coolers on your engines. Your tanks I'm guessing are forward of the engines, separated from the engine bay and lieing in the bilge right next to the water keeping the fuel cooler than outside air temp.

Hi Joe the Maretron fuel flow sensors have integrated temp sensors to accurately calculate fuel volume, I can see those temps on my display screens, typically in summer here the fuel starts out at 87 degrees ambient temp, and on a short ride will only go up 5-10 degrees depending on the volume of fuel in the tank, on long trips (hours) I have never seen the fuel coming from the tank get much over 100, The main tank in under the console area and yes separate from the engine compartment. It would be pretty easy to cut a fuel cooler into the water lines from the sea strainer to the water pumps and run the FASS return line through that, but not sure it is worth the effort when the water down here is over 80 most of the year. The manual gives specs on HP output, 315HP @ 77F, and 299HP @104F with a specific gravity of .84. So I might be down 5-10HP due to warmer fuel but in summer I don't think any amount of fuel coolers is going to get me fuel much less than 90F.

2) that FASS pump is the nuts, very cool idea but I see a problem. It's a gear style pump I think(maybe) judging where the motor is mounted, so the FASS pump can pump lots of GPM, you have the pressure cut down and therefore return most of the fuel right to the tank, I'll add heated fuel. A couple degrees adds up over time because if the Delta is 3 degrees as the whole fuel tank rises each cycle of the tank continues to raise by 3 deg until you reach whatever the max is.
It is a gear style pump, I will check the temps on all the lines next time I run it but I don't think it is adding that much temp to the system.

3) your Yanmar fuel filter assembly has the return built into it to de-airate the fuel that is why there is a return there. The fact that the return goes through the fuel cooler says to me that your engines uses less than 10% of the fuel delivered to the fuel filter housing the rest is bypassed right back tot he tank and is cooled. That filter hosuing has a mechanism in it to restrict fuel pressure to the fuel injection pump whether it is a spring and ball or a restrictive passage but something says "hey the engine won't use all this fuel and we need to send some back to the tank"
The engine fuel pump delivers a max of 21.9GPH, the engines use a max of 17.5GPH, at part load I imagine the ratios are similar here is the chart from Yanmar
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/j...ps1d0f125e.png

4) I think first you need to have the fuel bypass from the FASS going through your feul cooler, I know in #1 I said the cooler is there for other applications but if there USE IT, the fuel returned from your engine is sooo small it could heat a think. The bulk of your return fuel is from your FASS pump and your filter housing, more from the FASS. Gear pumps under pressure will make heat so I think whatever advantage the cooler is giving you, you are negating it with the FASS pump - plump it through the coolers. YES your engine fuel consumption monitoring will be way off but what's the goal better performance or MPG?

5) to increase pressure to your fuel pump you need to bypass less from the filter housing, you can jack up the FASS pump untill it flows more fuel than the filter head can return which I think you are at that point because like you said "the primer is so hard you can't push it down" but you really need to look at where the pressure drop is? The fuel gauge on the FASS pump does tell you much you need to measure pressure on the line between the fuel filter housing and the fuel pump itself that is the pressure you need to raise.
In the 2nd photo in my other post the line painted grey 90 degrees from the inlet to the filter housing is a braided hose that goes directly to the injection pump. I guess I have to install some fittings on that line and see what the PSi is there?

6) the aneroid controls the amount of fuel delivered during acceleration, once you reach enough boost pressure the aneroid is rendered useless, it does nothing. The aneroid is a pollution control device so you don't make BIG smoke clouds trying to get on plane nothing more than that. What your showing me in that one picture looks like the plunger has a helix cut in it,a spiral curve - does it or is it just the angle? I'm guessing that plunger where it is threaded on the top goes through some type of diaphram and boost either raise or lowers it- correct? The taper again I'm guessing is what allows the amount of fuel to pass around, the smaller the dia the more fuel the larger dia the less fuel, I don't know that type so I'm guessing but that is what it looks like.
Yes it is an angle but the slope varies as you rotate, the position of that pin makes a huge difference in the getting on boost performance, at the most conservative position the engines rev to 1400 rpm and don't get enough fuel to make boost and get on plane, at the most aggressive setting they make boost relatively quickly and boat comes right up, with only a little puff of smoke. The toothed wheel in the picture sets the preload of the spring under the diaphragm and lets it get pushed down by less boost helping the boat get moving faster. I figured this stuff out from a Toyota Landcruiser forum in Australia. The taper acts on a rod that controls a lever in the pump that tells it how much fuel to deliver, more fuel sooner = more boost sooner = planing out quicker, you say it only affects acceleration but I have been able to get more RPMs out of the engines since messing with this. (100)

You need to understand when I worked on verisons of things like that it was a simple spring and diaphram connected to a rod that simpley did not let the fuel rack advance because the rack was on a yield link - LOL
Old DDA reference non turbo engines had a solid link bar between governor and "the rack", when they tried to first put some soke limiting on turbo DDA's the solid link bar became a spring loaded bar simpley to allow time for the turbo to spool up - basic yet worked OK.

Your insight is priceless and I appreciate you sharing your knowledge I am sure you have forgotten 10 times what I know! The big question is when are you coming to Miami to go for a ride!

did you have to drill it or the plug was already there? Do they come with fuel flow information or did you have to add your own?

Plug was there. Fuelflow also is there but I needed a Maretron-converter to get the J1939 signal into the NMEA2000 chartplotter.

So the helix has a rod travel along it to advance fuel so that's why you want the helix to be further up to allow more fuel rod travel?

I do not believe that is a lapped part then, why don't buy a spare one and have someone just grind it further up for you, that would be very easy to test? You want the distance from the flat to the helix which your measuring to be greater - correct?

So now you return 4 galllons and hour to the tank correct?

The fuel coolers your probably right you have 80+ deg water! Again if you had an old Post, Ocean, even Hatteras sport fih the fuel tanks were coomon to the engine room so after a full day or running the engine heat allow heats up the fuel, forget that the DDA's push all the return fuel through the cylinder heads so that adds lots of heat. Maintaining at 100 is probably the best you can do.

I can look at the return sensors next time I got out and see but i think it is closer to 5 I rarely see them using 17GPH, unless I am loaded up.

This is how the pin acts in the pump:
http://us1.webpublications.com.au/st...109344_3mg.jpg

More info here:
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_109344/article.html

I can't even get anybody from Denso on the phone so not sure if parts are available or not.

Can the boat get on plane with the trans in high gear, do you feel the 2-speed is needed?

duplicate post

Actually, you might be able to lessen.
(And I have on 2) of those mentioned) (One caveat here, adding to the problem of high temps vs performance, was some engine mfr's look at Delta-T, some max temp, some depression).
I see the Cummins spec back a few pages listed 294sqin per as required air. That is for consumption AND ventilation. As Joe mentions, in the distant past, OEM's disregarded ventilation air, and only calculated for consumption. (Often this was borderline at best, and miscalculated simply by forgetting the generator) If the consumption air was routed across hot or obstructed components...performance suffers.
(If I had a dollar for every E.R. door or hatch I couldnt open underway....but I digress).
I have seen many times (especially on Tier 3 engines w/high radiant heat) that ventilation sizing (& just as important) their location, will drop E.R.temps (incl fuel) in particular hulls.
I'm just speculating here based on my experience, but those Yanmars seem to be pretty close together. Without knowing where the air is coming & going in that engine room as I write, you may get some benefit(s) just from forcing ambient air between the engines. If you were to drop the E.R..temp, the tank temp should follow. A well-engineered ventilation sytem will see temps drop everywhere in the engine room, as speed increases.

Think you can go without the twospeed for pleasureboating. Need the first gear with full tanks (1400 liters) and for really heavy seas. Makes almost 70 mph in first.

Joe ,I haven,t got the boat in the water yet ,I let both engines run on the hose for 15 min , just to see if everything was working properly ,the engines kept running (although idling only ) so my guess was the injection pump pulls fuel by using that manual operated pump that is used to prime the engine at its first start ,or when running out of fuel ... I thought those pumps were pushed by a cam ...

That's a great point, just may need to get some more air in there. You bring up a great point, how many engines rooms do you see the paint on the compressor side of the turbo and into the aftercooler turning brown on the little Cats & Cummins? The answer MANY just go on yachyworld and start looking at used boats like many of the smaller express style sportfisherman they lack enough air for cooling the room he's spot on! I'm guessing your intake air is into the 300's to turn that paint brown?

Aside from that you're running little Yanmar's that the Hp/cui already has them as "hi-performance" engine. You want to put more furl into them and get more power. This entire site is full of people telling others they are "stupid"(harsh for effect only) if when they add a bigger carb they have to change the stock exhaust, they change the intake, change the cam and you can't use those heads and on and on....

The more HP you try for the higher the EGT and you will get to the point that engine life is shorten so much their is no point to a diesel. The things I talked about on here earlier about flow, etc is just so you realize "hey to take it to the next level is not easy".

This was my beef with Fabio - great you have a engine that runs two races and then it needs "maintanance", how is that different than a gas engine and who in their right mind will buy them for commerical or pleasure applications? Looking back now 20+ years and I was right Seatek is irrelevant and Fabio went to FPT.

Don't build headaches build memories and on this ngiht of the year when we look ahead and back at highs and lows I regret the time I spent playing with the engine room when I should have just spent time on the water. For me the later years of doing all kinds of work was a job, we got paid to develope and test, the early years were to get to that point - you guys don't plan on making a business out of it so be careful and don't take the pleasure out of your hobby.

I'm going out now have a Happy New Year's and chat next year!!!

Yes and that would be a lift pump, you take that pump out when you use an electric lift pump. When we would run high flow electric pumps we took the manual pump out/off changed the line sizes and feed into the filter housing directly.

I might not have understood what you were asking when I answered, apologies!

Now I'm signing off before my wife kills me!

On lift pumps and bypass setups, I run a simple vane stlye from SX performance. Actually it's tagged as an elderbrock, it's the cheapest 190gph unit that summit sells. Contains a built in bypass valve / pressure regulator and no return line. This just provides added lift to the factory mechanical lift built on the cp3 high pressure pump. Since the regulator on the cp3 returns to tank, I prefer to let it manage that task.

If the SX pump fails, the mechanical lift still pulls enough fuel thru it for normal operation and will get ya home. Wide open running is no longer an option because she starves and will go into limp mode without the added fuel flow. I've considered ditching the mechanical lift, but it's not hurting anything. I also like that fass setup, but IMO its overkill and over priced for anything under 800hp. Most modern diesels are designed to deal with some air in the system from factory.


On fuel temps and return cooler, here is where it also gets specific to engine manufacturer. Since I have little experience with common marine diesels, I'll defer to each manufacturer requirements. What I can say is on anything running Bosch common rail, ya need it. I considered ditching that part on the Dmax till I saw the log data from normal cruising below. On the last rebuild I actually ditched the power steering cooler, and moved fuel return to an extra passage in the engine oil cooler unit. The Bosch design contains a temp sensor in the return line after all injector discharge converge. I normally see average fuel temps heading to the tank around 140-160F. So even 100 gallons is gonna warm pretty quick.

http://altfuelsgroup.org/pictures/al...fuel-temp2.JPG

Thanks Joe, your very correct about those common cavitation problems around the heads. A closed loop setup where the engine water pump just circulates from a cooler would likely resolve this with slower flow. Closed loop offers many advantages, besides just salt water isolation.

When they laid out my boat with an open loop setup, they opted for a 3/4" bypass line into the exhaust from where it enters the engine water pump. There is also a small factory cooling line off that GM pump feeding the turbo, then exiting into exhaust. So 95% of the water entering the engine must flow past the thermostats. Before that GM pump, on the charge cooler is a small pressure bypass valve and 5/8" line exiting out the side of the boat. With a fresh impeller in the seawater pump, it's pretty hard to maintain any decent engine temps when operating with standard water pressures.

That little bypass valve was meant to control cooling system pressure, but I cheat and let it bypass at around 3-4lbs vs 15-20lbs to raise engine temp. Works fine until ya open her up, then ya need to close it off again, which isn't possible on the fly. What's needed is another electronic bypass valve controlled by the ECU, and based off engine temp. But on my next design I'm going closed loop an won't have to mess with it..

Kid - I think so just close cool the engine itself and it will save you allot of troube, the cooler won't add that much weight, it's cooling the manifolds and turbos that use allot of the exchangers cpacity.

I appreciate the suggestion, I am pretty sure I don't have any problems with engine room temp even though they are side by side they get a lot of air coming in under the gunnels. Also I don't really have any way to increase the airflow into or out of the engine room without making it easier for water to get in there. I can run with my hatch wide open and see if I get any difference in fuel return temps, engine temps, or anything else. I do have an ambient air sensor that I could temporarily relocate to the engine room to get an idea of temps in there. Worth checking into anyway even just to rule it out.

I am very happy with my FASS pump, but your setup is much much different than mine, is the screen shot you put up showing a fuel return temp of 160???? Is it still over 100 after going through the cooler?

Also I disagree completely about diesels, especially modern common rail, being designed to deal with some air in the system. The least bit of air can quickly cause permanent damage to injectors and pumps.

Everything is still a nice Yanmar grey back there the intake side of the turbo is not discolored at all, I am after some more power and efficiency but not at the expense of reliability, I like the fact that I can run them on the pins with no problems, don't want to change that :)

so how come your selling this nice boat

Built the boat for Round Britain. 2012 and Cowes-MonteCarlo 2013. Both races were cancelled.
Lost the spark somewhat and new projects are waiting...

If for some reason somebody wants to buy the boat less engines, I am interested in the engines.

Not an option...

ok just putting it out there you never know what will happen.

Sorry I missed your question on the fuel temps.

That screenshot is from the factory temp sensor on the return line exiting pump and injectors, before the fuel cooler. I've never checked it after the cooler, but it's gotta be half that. My fuel cooler is in the first stage of the engine oil cooler, and that unit is so overkill sized, it will barley allow 12 quarts to reach 170F, no matter how hard/long you run. Part of the reason I've been bypassing water where I can.

On lift pumps, I can only say I've witnessed CP3 pumps and injectors fail with air removing lift pumps feeding them just as often as without. When you force feed those mechanical lifts with an electric, it bypasses a good portion of the fuel before reaching the CP3 pistons anyways. A lot of air in the fuel is not good on any diesel fuel system, but unlike my Ford which has dropped an injector about every time it's seen some air, the common rails I own have never shown any impact from air getting into the fuel lines. Just my personal experience, and I've had all my injectors and pump apart on the bench before... lol.