After having developed a 550HP LS based marine performance engine in 2007, spending over $150K on its development, far before anyone else even thought of doing such , I don't think these engines were hiding!

Put it into the market place for performance boaters in early 2008, built 5 , sold 4 and shut the program down in 2011.
I think the real question now is where the hell were and are all the LS marine engine BUYERS!

Stop the conjecture and bable, start spending money for LS marine engine orders and they will be there as long as the BUYERS ARE NOT HIDING!

Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar

Ray, I think you were ahead of the curve on the LS deal but it probably couldn't have been at a worse time. These motors aren't hiding, they just haven't been officially accepted as an alternative in performance boats yet. They're all over the place in ski/wakeboard boats, jet boats, big cruisers, etc. They're starting to make inroads though and you may just have to dust off that 550 package before too long. In the right application it's hard to argue with the potential. You can get an all aluminum LSA with closed cooling for 17k, hook it up to Livorsi electronic controls and CAN BUS Vantage view gauges and you've got a killer package. They are unbelievably smooth and responsive and get excellent fuel economy.

While I applaud you efforts and truly appreciate what it takes to be a trail blazer. If there is one thing (and there may have been others) that stands out to me as to why your package didn't make it is......miss-placed efforts in marketing. Seriously, get off the internet forums, get in your car, and make some sales calls. As I mentioned I respect you and your accomplishments....but I see you posting on here more than any other business owner....and 80% of the time about bull $hit topics. Why oil went up, who Obama had scratch his ass, are my balls supposed to hang this low? Topics such as these are trivial and a waste of time for someone that makes there living developing engine packages.

I have been in sales for a few years now and if there is only one thing I have learned it is you get out what you put into it. I.E. a company's success is directly related to the salesman's success. I'm not saying I could sell your business better than you could because it take years to acquire the knowledge required to actually sell a product such as yours. But if you are going to sell a turn key engine package you should have someone calling on every manufacturer in the U.S. as well as attending trade shows to get in front of as many people as possible. But I digress.

(Steps down off soap box) In short keep up the great work, unplug the router.

I think a bit of the poor reception of that engine was the timing. 2008 was the worst year in recent history for disposable income and purchases like that. I know if my small blocks died, I would first look at an LSX.

Haxby and Precision, I appreciate your nice words, suggestions and comments.

We did market quite extensivly in 2007 and 2008, but when the new boat market tanked in 2008, no one was buying boats or new engines and the aftermarket shrank like a dried prune to the point where we just kept taking calls and answering questions about the new platform, providing data and we sold a few as I said.

Sales is critically important in any business, but since 2008 we realized we needed to just hunker down, do what we do best and keep our costs under control and survive in a disasterous market.

Haxby:
I realize that from a power production standpoint the LSA version LS aluminum engine makes great power and torque under boost as your dyno report shows quite clearly. where I think this particular engine falls short of what performance boaters with boats larger than ski/wakeboard boats need is in torque production when the engine is not at WOT (like on the dyno) and at crusing rpms where most boaters even performance boaters spend most of their time.
This engine out of boost at between 3000-4000 rpms does not even produce 400 ft/lbs of torque at part throttle cruising rpms! If the boat needs the torque and this little engine is kept in boost, how long do you think its going to last without a substantial rebuild, maybe 200-300 hrs tops! That 's not going to get it done in todays economic boating market in my opinion. This is why we chose not to use supercharging or turbocharging as a means of producing an LS based marine performance engine capable of producing nearly 500 lb/ft of torque at those rpms. We did it with cubic inches, variable valve timing and some good electronics, great air and fuel flows and a reliable rotating system.
When that is done, you end up with an complete, warrantied, fresh water cooled marine performance engine in the +$20K range or higher like Ilmors new MV570.

As for my babble and rants about the rip off of the Amercian consumer with the games played with gas and fuel pricing, I am sorry, but I am one who likes to get my thoughts, facts and feelings out there once in a while and believe me when I say I am a fast typist and I don't spend a lot of time doing just that.

I spend most of my time on OSO helping others !

Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar

I'm a little confused by this. The torque requirement at a given rpm is determined by the propeller curve. A boat that is propped correctly should be in the 65% to 75% load range at cruise. The size and weight of the boat doesn't effect the power requirement as long as you prop it to reach its rated rpm. The size and weight of the boat will effect the speed, not the load other then getting on plane in certain applications. When you want to accelerate, the torque becomes a big factor and this engine clearly has enough to get 'er done. These engines have proven themselves in big, heavy, whitewater jet boats running axial flow pumps. The impeller curve on these pumps is MUCH steeper then a propeller curve on an outdrive and the engines end up cruising in the 80+% load range and usually at a lower rpm then they would like. With sequential EFI, coil on plug, dual knock sensors, very efficient cylinder heads, factory intercooler, and low boost this is not a problem. I have not seen an LSA failure yet due to excess load. I know it's a different engine but, I recently serviced a 6.0 vvt that has 1600hrs of hard use on it. I think it shows how durable a platform they are. I've got a production LS3 going on the dyno this weekend and I'll post the sheets as soon as it's done. I would love to see a pair of your 550's in a 28 Donzi or something similair! I'm sure you would too

Let's revisit why I started this thread:

10/10/11 (post #1)

It's not about the market for LS marine engines, as it could be argued that there MUST be a market, since all these companies offer a marine LS package...right?

You seem to like to jump all over this thread as a "Ray" of sunshine.... (see what I did there?)

How about answering the question I've asked you over and over and over and over in this thread....especially since you referenced it again above.


11/16/11

11/29/11

5/1/12

Funny...I will admit that I am babbling about LS engines....but the only conjecture I see here is you saying that they won't work in "our" application...and then not providing ANY proof or evidence.

Haxby has been more than willing to share his opinion, AS WELL AS real world before/after results. Maybe that's why he's still selling LS based packages?

^^^THIS^^^ made the whole post.

I have read most of this thread and alot of the reasons why the LS based engines havent taken off in a the marine arena have been stated. The reasons have been countered, but they are still solid reasons, no matter how well the counter point has been articulated.

Just to rehash a couple of the main reasons. They are spendy. No getting around that. Stroke and poke one to 400+ CI and it gets really spendy for the long block. Other than a Z06, GM hasnt sent one out the door in a production car with more than 6.3 litres. They make great power over a large RPM scale, but they do not make the tourqe at lower RPM's than a 454 or 502. This cannot be argued, unless of course if you add a blower our turbo charging. Then consider the largest market is still repowering. Going from BBC to LSx automatically mandates replacement exhaust, controls, motor mounts, bell housing?, flywheel etc. I would also be willing to put money on the LS based engine not being much more fuel effecient then an old school SBC or BBC in this invornment.

Dont get me wrong, the LS based engines are fantastic. My brother has a built 402 in his 05 GTO. It makes around 500 RWHP running through a 3800 stall convertor and slushbox yet he drives it everyday and still has all of the modern conveniences that would be expected in a daily driver.

It doesnt make the tourqe that the stock 502 EFI in my boat makes below 4K rpms though. No way to get around that without FI. FI = additionel $ ontop of the accessories up charge for the change over.

Haxby has done wondeful things with some smaller boats and the LS based marine engines. His expertise in marine engines is topflite and his efi knowledge is wonderful.
I am not criitiquing his results on the dyno with the LSA supercharged engine, they are very good and credible.
I am just trying to point out that if one were to expect lets say 400-450 lb/ft. of torque at lets say 3500-4000rpms, cruising rpms at part thorttle from this fairly small 6.0 liter engine the engine would be inconsiderable boost and if this engine is operated at very low boost or no boost the torque values are going to drop to the point of being just a small block, that it is.
In boats of fair size and weight where torque values need to be at those 400-500lbs foot ranges at 3500-4000rpms and you as an owner expect good engine life before major overhaul of lets say 400-500hrs minimum, you are not going to get there with any engine in considerable boost most of its operating time.
I must also say here that the LS -LSX GM engine platform is a wonderful engine series and it is a far cry better than the older small block and big block GM engines in technology, efficiency, rpm potential and reliability. It is definitly a good platform when properly applied to various marine engine applications. In medium to larger current performance boat applications it will still be neccessary to remember that when torque ("grunt") is needed in an LS-LSX based marine engine that will deliver good reliable high engine hours there will still be "no replacement for some sizeable displacement".
Just my engine savy opinion and experience.

Best Regards,
ray @ Raylar