Cockpit construction
#121
Have you had a chance to look over the Linder guidelines? a great deal of this is already there and it is a good place to start.
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Throttles- Cleveland Construction 377 Talon
08 OPA Class 1 National Champion
08 Class 1 Geico Triple Crown Champion
08 OPA High Points Champion
10 OPA Class 1 National Champion ( happy now Ed! )
Throttles- Cleveland Construction 377 Talon
08 OPA Class 1 National Champion
08 Class 1 Geico Triple Crown Champion
08 OPA High Points Champion
10 OPA Class 1 National Champion ( happy now Ed! )
#122
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 72
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The Linder guidelines? No I haven't.
I'm familiar with the Lavin guidelines, UIM rulebooks, drag boat regulations, Unlimited hydroplanes, WPPA etc.
How can I get my hands on the Linder guidelines? Is it possible to download or do I need to order a copy somewhere?
I'm familiar with the Lavin guidelines, UIM rulebooks, drag boat regulations, Unlimited hydroplanes, WPPA etc.
How can I get my hands on the Linder guidelines? Is it possible to download or do I need to order a copy somewhere?
#123
Linder and Lavin guidlines are the same, sorry for the confusion. I got a hold of GHL(not to be confused with GLH) on here (George Linder) and he sent me a copy. A lot of work has gone into it and although it needs some updating is a great starting point. Things like water deflection within the super structure, occupant placment as well as force and flexural components are all addressed. It is a very good tool to help one think through canopy construction
Worst case scenario if you could not obtain a copy i could try to get permission to copy mine and send it to you. Maybe it could be posted as a PDF?
Worst case scenario if you could not obtain a copy i could try to get permission to copy mine and send it to you. Maybe it could be posted as a PDF?
__________________
Throttles- Cleveland Construction 377 Talon
08 OPA Class 1 National Champion
08 Class 1 Geico Triple Crown Champion
08 OPA High Points Champion
10 OPA Class 1 National Champion ( happy now Ed! )
Throttles- Cleveland Construction 377 Talon
08 OPA Class 1 National Champion
08 Class 1 Geico Triple Crown Champion
08 OPA High Points Champion
10 OPA Class 1 National Champion ( happy now Ed! )
Last edited by glassdave; 11-25-2011 at 01:30 PM.
#124
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 72
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Yes, they are a good base when you start designing. I thing most cockpit regulations have their origin in the Lavin/Linder guidelines?
But the number of accidents with bad outcome shows there still is room for improvement in regulations, guidelines etc.
There are strategies and techniques from other safety areas that has been developed for 50-60 years, now. They need to be adopted and applied to race boat safety, IMHO.
But the number of accidents with bad outcome shows there still is room for improvement in regulations, guidelines etc.
There are strategies and techniques from other safety areas that has been developed for 50-60 years, now. They need to be adopted and applied to race boat safety, IMHO.
Last edited by Gripenland; 11-25-2011 at 02:01 PM.
#125
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 137
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From: Miami, Fl
I think this particular double flange design was intended as a retrofit upgrade to existing flush hatches with a thinned down lip, so the original canopy landing for the hatch did not need to be cut an altered probably weakening the landing??? If you built a new one it would seem to be better to include into the hatch landing and maintain a slightly less than flush finish, let the water flow over un obstructed. This going together with a multipoint latch mechanism that prevents the hatch form peeling open too, only problem with the 3 and 4 point latches that several US boats are using now including Miss G is they could conceivably jam under stress, but figure the primary escape in a roll over is through the tunnel escape hatch instead of the canopy hatch but UIM seem to promote the canopy hatch as primary escape???
#127
wonder if it would be good to have it be mandatory to also have a floor hatch when a multi point latch system is used. Unfortunately this may also promote not using multi point latches in some boats.
Some things i also think that should be considered or at least looked at for mandatory regulations.
No spinning in on cats - it has been discussed in the past but not sure how feasible or practice this is.
require recreational diver certification in canopy boats (PADI, SSI, ???) - Only takes a few days and is available pretty much anywhere. It is imperative that you are comfortable on air and can function in control. When Dean and i went over we were inside on air while we waited for the boat to sink around us to allow the canopy to equalize enough to open the hatch. Neither he or i were the least bit concerned as the water overtook the confined space. I held the latch as he applied slow steady pressure till it freed up. I attest this directly to the training we had gone through and the ability to not panic because we knew exactly what was happening and how to deal with it. Took us roughly three minutes to get the hatch open as best i can tell. The progression of what was going on was drilled into our heads through OSS's canopy training. Very well thought out, elements of which i would like to help Bruce incorporate into OPA's dunker.
Some things i also think that should be considered or at least looked at for mandatory regulations.
No spinning in on cats - it has been discussed in the past but not sure how feasible or practice this is.
require recreational diver certification in canopy boats (PADI, SSI, ???) - Only takes a few days and is available pretty much anywhere. It is imperative that you are comfortable on air and can function in control. When Dean and i went over we were inside on air while we waited for the boat to sink around us to allow the canopy to equalize enough to open the hatch. Neither he or i were the least bit concerned as the water overtook the confined space. I held the latch as he applied slow steady pressure till it freed up. I attest this directly to the training we had gone through and the ability to not panic because we knew exactly what was happening and how to deal with it. Took us roughly three minutes to get the hatch open as best i can tell. The progression of what was going on was drilled into our heads through OSS's canopy training. Very well thought out, elements of which i would like to help Bruce incorporate into OPA's dunker.
__________________
Throttles- Cleveland Construction 377 Talon
08 OPA Class 1 National Champion
08 Class 1 Geico Triple Crown Champion
08 OPA High Points Champion
10 OPA Class 1 National Champion ( happy now Ed! )
Throttles- Cleveland Construction 377 Talon
08 OPA Class 1 National Champion
08 Class 1 Geico Triple Crown Champion
08 OPA High Points Champion
10 OPA Class 1 National Champion ( happy now Ed! )
Last edited by glassdave; 11-25-2011 at 03:25 PM.
#128
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 10,833
Likes: 18
From: Beautiful Fort Lauderdale www.cheetahcat.com
With the current speeds, cockpit and canopy structure must be taken to the next level, well beyond what a simple shop laminate with bake post cure can EVER offer, Resin system, curatives, filament types and orientation are Deadly critical, this is time for the Prepregs and The Autoclave to be used in this Extremely critical area of the raceboat, Because without that, These simple bagging techniques are NOT EVER going to do this critical job properly,Ones Lucky to get 65% out of the laminate, Christ Working at the sea shore between waves ,The most you could ever achieve is 14.7 PSI theoretical, The Autoclave will give what ever is called for in pressure and Heat, You want a 1000 PSI and 500 degrees ! , OK, Remembering, these Plastics store heat as cross linking.
Quick story: I was watching a friend race “M” Class in Abu Dhabi, We just finished “S” Class and made the steps, Was sitting at the turn for the sea leg going out from the Cornish leg, he came by leading and barrel rolled about a 100 feet in front of me (thinking no big deal), When the boat righted itself there was NO Canopy (Tandem boat) Gone Completely, my friend (throttle man is up a little) got hit in the neck with wreckage and bled out, Dead, His wife just had twin boys that morning!!!!He was very happy going out that day to race,
Took the wind out of me Big Time! He was going to run in one of my Cheetahcats ,the following year and also personally stood up for me and my boat against the scrutineers trying to ban the adjustable canards and such so we could race it, I had a very hard time with this thinking WHAT if that was ONE of my boats ? Took me 2 years to make the journey mentally back into racing, Meanwhile I built boats that killed bad people with GUNS.
Long and short of it is, Laminates can be designed and "processed" into near metal like strength; Pressures ?? Take the Gross cross-section (forget shape) use that and the top speed + 40% For Starters in the analyses.
Quick story: I was watching a friend race “M” Class in Abu Dhabi, We just finished “S” Class and made the steps, Was sitting at the turn for the sea leg going out from the Cornish leg, he came by leading and barrel rolled about a 100 feet in front of me (thinking no big deal), When the boat righted itself there was NO Canopy (Tandem boat) Gone Completely, my friend (throttle man is up a little) got hit in the neck with wreckage and bled out, Dead, His wife just had twin boys that morning!!!!He was very happy going out that day to race,
Took the wind out of me Big Time! He was going to run in one of my Cheetahcats ,the following year and also personally stood up for me and my boat against the scrutineers trying to ban the adjustable canards and such so we could race it, I had a very hard time with this thinking WHAT if that was ONE of my boats ? Took me 2 years to make the journey mentally back into racing, Meanwhile I built boats that killed bad people with GUNS.
Long and short of it is, Laminates can be designed and "processed" into near metal like strength; Pressures ?? Take the Gross cross-section (forget shape) use that and the top speed + 40% For Starters in the analyses.
Last edited by Steve 1; 11-25-2011 at 11:44 PM.
#129
Steve I spent the afternoon thinking about autoclaves and if a standardized canopy could be developed. Great post my friend. Very sorry for your loss.
__________________
Throttles- Cleveland Construction 377 Talon
08 OPA Class 1 National Champion
08 Class 1 Geico Triple Crown Champion
08 OPA High Points Champion
10 OPA Class 1 National Champion ( happy now Ed! )
Throttles- Cleveland Construction 377 Talon
08 OPA Class 1 National Champion
08 Class 1 Geico Triple Crown Champion
08 OPA High Points Champion
10 OPA Class 1 National Champion ( happy now Ed! )




