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Cockpit construction

Old 11-27-2011 | 12:04 PM
  #151  
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The cockpit would go in as a separate Highly engineered unit and get laminated in, The Autoclave gives the highest quality laminate, which is the reason it is used in the Aerospace industry, Vacuum bagging and such you are using atmosphereic pressure and therefore limited by the weight of the air above.

Filament ratios 60% and above in the high strength carbon from the Prepreger ,and pushed down by Clave pressure would be in the 70% range from what I have seen here.

I build from Uni’s so will always stay at the high end of that ratio,The Cheetahcat 12 Model, I mentioned in the drawing stage had a Cockpit framed in 2” laminated transom core (I have used Plastic cores for 30 years) F-16 Canopies (this was 15 years ago) set in again 2” hatches with heavy continues hinge ½” Pin (we made those) on the outboard sides,Today in the states ,that would be done in a autoclave ,(the Boss told me to keep his brothers alive) So I wrapped a transom around them.

A family friend Jack Clark who owns Jaguar Marine, Builds a very tough canopy system with a rollbar in it as well,we built a plastic class one canopied cat (the first open class with them) in 86 and raced it in 87 ,Jack personally field tested that first system in the second race of the WC that year, in a “120 MPH event” Broke the drives off and I could not get fuel pressure the fuel pickups were hairpinned to the top of the ATL tanks, We ran the Boat the final race a lot of work paid off.
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Old 11-27-2011 | 12:15 PM
  #152  
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Originally Posted by aex
My thoughts and prayers go out to the families of the men we needlessly lost in Key West this week .
The tragedies that have struck our community this have prompted me to rethink my resto project .
As some of you may be aware , I am presently having my old Chris Cat restored in it's original form and livery .
In 1989 we constructed a reinforced cockpit with F16 canopies for the boat . It basically consisted of a cored drop in cockpit liner with a bolted and glued on cored canopied deck .
After the project was finished I remembered sitting in the new womb looking around and commenting to my driver how we now had protection in the event of a stuff however in any other impact we could be in trouble . We went on and fortunately ran pretty hard with no mishaps but I always told guys the canopies gave a false sense of security .
Yesterday I contacted my builder and asked him about engineering an actual drop in survival cell or perhaps I should just install the original three man open cockpit as many guys have been tossed overboard with no injuries .
I suggested an elliptical structure consisting of an aluminum or perhaps chromemoly cage , the canopy bolted to it and a cored composite cockpit wrapping that drop in structure .
In retrospect our 1989 cockpit had some good attributes , the liner we fabbed acted as a cocoon of sorts . Many of the cockpits I've seen just use the hull's existing deck and bulkheads to segregate the cockpit .
Any input or collaboration on this project would be valued .
A universal drop in survival pod is in order here . If a breakaway unit makes sense it should have it's own upright flotation and a means for throttle/shift cables , steering lines and wiring to also break away at a predetermined pressure .
We have access to an autoclave in Bristol , RI if any one wants to team up with my guys to design and build .
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Old 11-27-2011 | 12:16 PM
  #153  
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Originally Posted by GLH
Technology can always help...

Example... Choose which car you want in a frontal offset crash. 1959 Chevrolet Bel Air VS. 2009 Chevrolet Malibu

And the tale of the tape...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joMK1WZjP7g
This is a perfect example for your boat. Great boat but old canopy design. Hate to be so blunt but I bet if you call Randy at MTI he could offer an upgrade giving better inside support with wider flanges and then add a outer retainer that reduces the overall expose windshield area. This would make your boat much safer and if you do roll over at speed you will less likely end up with a window in your face. This is not a joke but fact. Randy has done nothing wrong but we can learn from the past. Its up to the owner of the boat to ask for improvements if you want. If you dont want to change the look then just drive slower and dont thank of the canopy as protection other then keeping your face out of the wind and sun. Supper cool boat by the way!!!
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Old 11-27-2011 | 12:25 PM
  #154  
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Originally Posted by aex
A universal drop in survival pod is in order here . If a breakaway unit makes sense it should have it's own upright flotation and a means for throttle/shift cables , steering lines and wiring to also break away at a predetermined pressure .
We have access to an autoclave in Bristol , RI if any one wants to team up with my guys to design and build .
With the jolts you take in offshore during a normal race in 4 to 6s I'm not sure break away is feasible.
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Old 11-27-2011 | 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by GLH
Technology can always help...

Example... Choose which car you want in a frontal offset crash. 1959 Chevrolet Bel Air VS. 2009 Chevrolet Malibu

And the tale of the tape...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joMK1WZjP7g
They don't build them like they used to , they build them better .
Much , better .
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Old 11-27-2011 | 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by FREEDOM US1
With the jolts you take in offshore during a normal race in 4 to 6s I'm not sure break away is feasible.
Unless bulkheads and decks are made exponentially stronger the cockpit is basically on it's own anyway . With weight always a concern and the extreme hydraulic pressure decks and bulkheads would have to withstand I don't see stronger hulls factoring into the safety equation .
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Old 11-27-2011 | 12:45 PM
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I do not know having owned a lot older cars my 57 Imperial (392) or 56 Cadillac Eldorado, you would scrape that thing off the front bumper.
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Old 11-27-2011 | 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by aex
Unless bulkheads and decks are made exponentially stronger the cockpit is basically on it's own anyway . With weight always a concern and the extreme hydraulic pressure decks and bulkheads would have to withstand I don't see stronger hulls factoring into the safety equation .
I think the pod should be supper strong in all direction like a big eeg and mounted on the top and sides of the tunnel with thru bolts and back up plates like engine mounts . The boat can tear itself up in a wreak but the pod should protect the driver and stick man from water, bulkheads and whatever. I would think there would be different pods for S class verses supper boat due to speed and weight. Basically a thicker lay up schedule for the super boat to over come higher forces at higher speeds
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Old 11-27-2011 | 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by FREEDOM US1
I think the pod should be supper strong in all direction like a big eeg and mounted on the top and sides of the tunnel with thru bolts and back up plates like engine mounts . The boat can tear itself up in a wreak but the pod should protect the driver and stick man from water, bulkheads and whatever. I would think there would be different pods for S class verses supper boat due to speed and weight. Basically a thicker lay up schedule for the super boat to over come higher forces at higher speeds
I was thinking a big egg shape as well sunk into a Standardized cavity in the deck, maybe an insert that could be distributed to manufacturers. Not so much break away but blow away in catastrophic event. The egg shape would lend it's ability to deflect water from any angle.
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Last edited by glassdave; 11-27-2011 at 02:18 PM.
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Old 11-27-2011 | 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by aex
Unless bulkheads and decks are made exponentially stronger the cockpit is basically on it's own anyway . With weight always a concern and the extreme hydraulic pressure decks and bulkheads would have to withstand I don't see stronger hulls factoring into the safety equation .
the pod is the way to go, IMO. but with the different boat builders and teams it will be hard to even come up with guidelines or build specs that everyone agrees on. i wouldn't classify it as a "breakaway" like the drag boats, but more of an individual piece thats glassed in or set in with Plexus (or similar adhesive).

jim's comment on certain builders being hard headed is very much true along with some racers thinking that they have it all figured out.

honestly one of the only way to make a rule for canopy upgrades would be to increase the boat wt# and that weight increase would have to be WITHOUT fuel and ballast.

just to give an idea of what i've tried to explain to some:

if your boat weighs #8800 for a #9500 class wt, that means your short #700 lbs of material. in a traditional laminate that is hand laid-up thats 350 lbs of glass and 350 lbs of resin. about 3 rolls of 24 oz glass and a drum of resin. thats alot of material to leave out and alot of structure that could be used to increase the canopy strenght.

(side note- using a impregnator you could increase the glass ratio to 70%, further increasing the structure strenght)

the common practice is to have the boat as light as possible and make weight using movable ballast. and i'm not against the ballast just if your adding that much maybe its worth looking at the structural integrity of being so light ?????

compare that to a DW 38' that is about #200 lbs under the 10k lb limit for 850 sc for the same size boat. in simple math thats an additional #1000 lbs of laminate. which might be some of the reason the 38DW survived going over 3x with minor cosmectic damage vs how some of the other supercats have faired.

as for the autoclave, steve your saying that equal thickness laminates gain 70% more strenght over a laminate built using an impregnator (70% glass to resin ratio) and bagged at 29 HG of vacuum and post cured, say using a paint booth at 150 degrees F ? also using the same coring materials, of course.

hopefully this tragic accident hits home for those that have shrugged off canopy safety. i've had the chance to met alot of great people within the offshore world and Bob Morgan was one of them. his lost, along with the others is truly saddening and disturbing knowing that improvements could have been made that might have changed the out come.

just in my recent memory we've lost quite a few (catboats):

randy linebach
bob morgan
john tillman
joe gratton
Kevin Graff
Phil Dejana
Mohammad Al Muhairi
Jean-Marc Sanchez

those above are just the few that stick out too me. there has been many close calls and severe injuries in addition. hopefully this time changes will be made. but as history of US baot racing shows its not promising.
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