Leak proof, 10 yrs warrantee headers.
 

Been thinking about this for years.
I need some serious and objective input on this from performance boaters and racers.
The worthless keyboard commandos do not need to waste ink on the screen with BS comments.
So.. let’s assume that I came out with an out of the box concept of a header system that WILL NOT leak, or F'up your motor due to water.
I discussed this with a few racers and boaters and based on a few inputs the idea is sound. Before I through some $ at this I need a bit of “market research”
Performance is compatible with the current headers designs, cost about 3-4 K per motor. (less then CMI :evilb:) but here’s my questions.
Would there be a demand for this? Let’s assume that there would be less “bling”, IE. For the sake of argument, let’s say it had to be matt finish, no polishing. Is this very important? Would anyone sacrifice the chrome finish to have a guarantee for no leaks? (Based on my history with leaky headers, I rather have purple headers with pink dots and NO leaks)
You got a 1000+- HP would you willing to give up 10-15 HP for a no leak guarrantee? Add 10 pounds to a motor? (let’s face it that’s a case of beer)
Please give me your objective thoughts (no BS posts) and if I can make this work the leaky header issue is history, then I might be looking for partners. :)

Material used?

Black looks ok and white too. Would we be able to get custom colors to match motors? And if gloss were available, I think it would sell. I am guessing they would not be tube style headers.

Pete, good luck w/ that Dude!!!!! C ya in Miami!!!!:coolcowboy:

sounds like a Stainless Marine cast header . . . . .

Hows there record?

:eureka:

better Hurry China is watching :drink::signs069:
You have got your work Cut out for you

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/s...d-exhaust.html

I'm planning to be there, and even talk to a few Marine product "suppliers".

Please understand my reluctance providing a lot of details just yet. This may be a pretty good thing.
I understand the cost VS. market issues. NASA can make a header from, ceramic composites that would never leak. Just add a several zeros behind the cost, so it’s prohibitive to the general market. What I have in mind is cost effective. Not the usual design concept. For example, Just an example and point.. Cooling the headers with liquid nitrogen… (and this is not the design, obviously it’s too costly, but the idea is pretty much waaay out of the typical designs)

I would say appearence is part of what you are buying. So i say yes it matters. But colors of some kind of finish would be desirable. Just not a bare material look unless it has the bling.

Thats kind of why i have been debating going to American Hi-tek
http://www.american-hi-tek.com/

do i wait until i damage a motor or just spend the money now and not worry about it

Good 4 U Buddy!! Best of luck!!!:coolcowboy:

Funny this came up today. I spent 2 hours today reading and researching which headers or manifolds I am going to order this week. It's pretty fukkin aggravating that I am trying to pick who's trash can I am going to throw $9000.00 into. How far are you from a prototype?
The boat is a 2004 Formula 382 with 525's. 230 hours. They don't leak yet...YET..

I've been running 2 sets of KEs 10yrs of hard running. Hard to beat thier perf too. Low on bling though is the common complaint about KEs.

Interesting system h2o. However. I have CMI's on my 525's and I had some issues. After doing extensive.. and I mean extesive research on headers with Merc. Racing. CMI etc. everyone I talked to they pretty much had the same answer. ALL headers will leak some time or a nother. I got the CMI's pretty much to the point of holding their own for a while.
Some time ago I promised on a thread that I will share some info. So here it is:
Connect the top of the headers (CMI especially) with a rod or soemthing like the tie rod on the ouitdrives. This will reduce movemennt and viboration, so the welds wont get too stressed and won't crack. Have the headers "move" with the motors, and not allow ANY flexing.
Change the tip/tail pipe rubber connection to a HD wire filed rubber hose. "Stiffen" the system up.
Always drain the headers after use but wait for .5- .75 hours untill they cool down. Don't drain them right of way. That's why I don't like the continious draining system with the small hose out on the transom, always draining. You stop you motor, the water drains out the headers actually heat up more. More expension/contraction more stress and cracks. Leave the water in the headers for a short time to allow the heat to decipitate.
On the CMI's with the "cool collar" there is a 1/4" - 1/2" non jacketed tube right after the flange that gets no water to cool. This is their weak area. Weld a few "beads" 90 degrees to the flange to stiffen this up and help heat transfer. (The big tube headers and the older CMI headers have the outter jacket all the way to the flange. Better)
If you don't wan't to weld, put some aluminum or SST corrogated or perforated material to this area to get the heat out of there. These may help, but no sure cure.
The crazy "thing" I came up with has no chance to leak. Your significant other may get pissed and put a nail through the darn thing or beat the hack out of the set with a hammer and I will still guarrantee that the motors will not get water, and be safe.

Hellava an idea HUH?
Thanks for the comments. keep them coming and I might just get this thing into the works.

dont really care about the bling...black will help to keep the price lower...lack of reliability is the one thing preventing me from buying headers...for now

Stainless Marine and KE already have products which fill this void. Some of us made the swich to these sysems a long time ago and never looked back. Others seem to be waiting for something new to come out or want to develop something on thier own? Why?

I had 10+ years on my old Stainless Marine's, about 4 years on the Aapche's new system. No leaks, no nothing...

Also, Mercury also has bars which connect the headers to the block to reduce movement.

Will your headers cover engine damage or just the headers? Huge difference here. I think they would have to be long tube polished SS. And not all CMIs are leaking junk. Honestly, I don't think you have a viable idea. JMO.

Owner sold them in favor of CMIs. That should tell you something....

Frank, I agree but the Stainless Marine won't fit the 525 heads unless you redrill the head. Stanless marine has a jig they will lone out (with deposit) but drilling holes in heads:eek:

Peter, as long as they are not really ugly I don't think it would be an issue if they work, don't leak.

I appreciate your comment, however, since you really don't know what's my "idea" is, it could still be very viable and it is. And yess... some of the CMI's are ok. And also YES we would cover the motors againts ANY water issues RE: headers. For example... and again this is an example not the design, but if I would cool the headers with forced air and not water, then no WATER could go into the motors.
Just a thought out of the box. :drink:

Well.. is there anythng wrong inventing a better mouse trap? If we would not try to improve on an idea or concept, we would still be in the stone age.
I'm glad you had good luck with your headers. Stainless makes a good set. I'm not aware of KE making their own, I thought they are distributers to a bunch. Who knows? may be they will carry "PARADOX Performance Products" in the future. :)
I'm not sure the "void" issue is relevant. If the so called "void" is filled we would not be seeing new model cars, engines, hulls, or anything "new". The "model "T" filled a void, now you can buy a Lambo. The "void" is NEVER filled, there is always room for something new and better.

I hear ya but for anyone competent with tools it's pretty easy to drill the holes and tap them in aluminum. Even if you mess up they're aluminum so they can be welded. If someone isn't mechanically inclined then pay some one to do it for 2 hrs.

If someone were to build a manifold specifically for the 525 they would be targeting a very narrow market and sales would be limited. Having castings made for different bolt patterns would be very costly IMHO.:drink:

http://www.keitheickert.com/p-12533-...eader-kit.aspx

Know a bunch of people who have been running them with very good results. They've been out there a long time.

Thanks Panther, I forgot about that one, and yess they been around for a while. For some reason just didn't think of it. Just FYI the stuff I got in mind is all Stainless Steel.

Pete:

Glad to hear about your possible new marine header product line. Just some thoughts and suggestions.

Please try and keep a few things in mind as you continue into designs and product of this class.

1. Headers should be headers and not just manifolds.The primary reason most performance boaters buy engines with true headers or add headers to their engines is to increase power. On normally aspirated engines the design and actual function of the header should produce measurable power and torque over a stock manifold or aftermarket manifold system. There is a science to actual runner shape, size and length and a true header should also have a carefully designed merge collector and transition into the tips to extract maximum efficiency from the engine. Todays performance boaters are very savy about performance gains and so you should have a header that produces results that will be verifiable in use and in the boat! There are actually only a small few marine headers that are excellent efficient designs!
2. There should also always be two distinct types of headers for marine performance engines, one long tube for N/A engines and another design specifically for supercharged and turbo charged engines the header requirement will be different especially how each engine type is trying to make maximum power.
3. Asthetics or "bling" in marine performance boats is HUGE, don't let anybody try to convince you its not that important!
Make sure the great looks are there as an aspect of your product and its design.
4. Try to keep the old saying KISS in mind. Keep the product as simple as possible and "Never Make a Product More Complicated than It Needs To Be to Work Well" !!
Keep the finished product easy to install as possible and easy to work on and service after install. Design in a clean finished appearance and tightly packaged as reasonable to keep space and clearance issues at a minimum.
5. Try to design and engineer from a market supported price point backwards to your final design and product. Its really not smart to design and then have to produce a product that is overpriced for its real market to a point where only a few users will purchase it.

I hope these ideas will help in your efforts. If I can be of help, let me know, I think I have a pretty good understanding of the marine exhaust connundrum and a lot of expierence into aspects of header design and performance.

Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar

KE, IMCO, SM all make manifold/headers that already do this. Plus the KE's out perform ANYTHING and all other headers. They are not big on bling, (Unless you have them Powercoated) that is why I have (2) new sets sitting in my garage waiting for installation someday.

Desert Rage thanks for the pic of your awesome motor w/ KE headers

i believe its the same pattern as the 496,and some others...
(600sci?)

I appreciate that clarification and you need explain no further lest someone steal your idea. Now I have three concerns, it would take a huge volume (flow) of air to cool headers and if this comes off a belt driven air pump there will be considerable parasitic power loss (again, you need not comment on this). Also, as Ray pointed out, big power N/A engines need the scavaging effect of tuned long tube headers and that bling is important. We all like to show off our engines. Finally, you would be entering an already crowded market and in a time of poor economy. Again, all JMO. If you can pull this off then best of luck to you.

In my opinion, if it doesn't have the bling but has a cool purpose built look to it then that would be fine. Lets face it, if it were not for the strength/lightweight aspect of carbon fiber, it would just be a black and grey checkerboard plastic cover. It is what it is and does that makes it also look so cool.

I would be interested in seeing something different. Finned pipes for more cooling, oil or alcohol for a cooling fluid that would would be non-harmful to the engine if it did leak, something else.

If you're gong to offer it........at least spell it right! WARRANTY

pot meet kettle...:evilb:

That sir is a typo! GONG!!!!

Weren't the original KE's made by pfmarine. I believe that is Coolermans family. Great performing headers from what I've been told.

Paradox, good luck on your venture and keep us posted.

Thanks Chris. Yes, my father designed and built them for 10yrs, and then sold it to Keith.

The first test set we built is over 20yrs old and has a god knows how many hours on it (the set is still in use today). The ones on our boat our 12yrs old. RmpRam had a set that he ran for over 10yrs I believe. A select few did manage to melt them, but it would have helped if they would have ran water through them or rigged their boat with something other than swimming pool hose :picard1:

On another note, regarding the draining of the headers, if you let them self drain or not, the water will still heat up. They only way that would work to have the water keep them cool when not self draining is to have a circulating pump.

From what I have read the 525 headers had issues because they were made to Mercs specs and merc cheaped out to keep costs down.

Without knowing what your "idea" is it's tough to comment, as there are options out there right now. But, if you have a BETTER option then it may spark interest.

Keep in mind people will be skeptical about the warranty from a new company.

Just my point-oh-two.

You dad is a flat out genious. I marvel at the design everytime I have them off.

Been running them on my engines for almost 10 years with no issues . Great design ... as you stated keep water in them they will last .

Yes, cool design on those cast units. I'm shocked at the KE price though