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Its over..... "The common man"

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Old 02-25-2012, 10:26 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Wildman_grafix View Post
What would your labor and over head costs be?
Less than $1000 on this one.
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Old 02-25-2012, 10:28 AM
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I agree.
In my neighbor hood I see quite a few 25~30 year old college grads still living with mom and dad because they can't afford their own place...much less a boat.
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Old 02-25-2012, 12:32 PM
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I think the performance market is going to undergo big changes in the next 10 years. The average person just will not be able to afford the performance boat as we know it (anything over 65 mph with a big block).

1) Gas over $5 per gallon. A 27' Fountain with a single 496 burns 23 gph at 51 mph. Let's say you run a single engine boat 100 hours a year at 20 gallons per hour (about 45 mph), that's 2000 gallons, or $10,000, just for gas!

2) You trailer the boat to the coast or lake 100 miles away. Your tow vehicle gets 10 mpg towing it say 8 times per year. That's 160 gallons or another $800 in gas towing. If you are going from L.A. to Lake Havasu, it's a 600 mile round trip. That would cost you $2400 in gas a year, as much as most people spend to run their car for an entire year.

3) Insurance, if you can even get it, could be anywhere from $800 to $2000 or more depending on the boat.

4) Depreciation can be $10,000 a year or more.

5) Add maintenance and repairs (blown Bravo $2000 for instance). It is usually about 10% of the cost of the boat per year. For a $100,000 boat, that would be another $10,000 (less in the newer years, more later).

6) Storage costs, if it won't fit in your garage or driveway, of $1200 to $3600 a year.

I don't know that many people who can afford $25-35,000 a year without a huge hit in their lifestyle, if they could afford it at all.

Just like we have seen with SUVs, people won't give up boating, but I predict a lot of downsizing, less expensive boats, more people moving into under 65 mph boats (much cheaper, more available insurance and running costs), more singles, more outboards. We are at the end of an era.

Michael

Last edited by Michael1; 02-25-2012 at 12:40 PM.
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Old 02-25-2012, 12:57 PM
  #114
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The high end market will be just that, exclusive, and high end. They don't need the volume, the owners just need their money. So they downsize, cater to wealthier clientele, and survive just fine. That will be the market. Heck, it almost is now. Nothing wrong with that, many may actually like the exclusivity of it all. In the end, the normal pleasure craft boats will benefit. At some point, some of the more casual name brands may offer some boats that cater to the less expensive, less exclusive performance market.

That's where things started anyway. 14' to 20' boats with larger outboards that did 60 mph to 70 mph max. MOstly lake and river boats, that were affordable, simple, bare bones. I remember lusting after a 14' Glastron with a bigger Merc OB, as well as the newer Checkmates and the like that made cool sounds. They were a lot of fun in the 60's and 70's, they will be a lot of fun again. Many brands have introduced more outboard models for 2011 and this year, many more will follow. This will create competition, and a desire to expand the market.

The only thing required for more entry-level boats to be offered, is for entry-level customers to reduce their demands and expectations. The Common Man has a six pack budget, and wants Corvettes and Porsches. Bling and speed cost $$$$. We used to be happy just to be on the water and remain floating. Expectations have to become more aligned with reality. The manufacturers have adjusted, now it's time for customers to do so as well.
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Old 02-25-2012, 02:00 PM
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I do wonder,,,,,,,, who are going to be the USED buyers of the high end stuff when they want to get a new boat.
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Old 02-25-2012, 02:21 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by VtSteve View Post
Money and perception are all relative. There will always be someone with less money, and some with more.
Yep, the definition of rich is "anyone who makes more than me". Doesn't matter where you are. If you lease your gulfstream jet, you look at the ones who own them as rich.

Brian
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Old 02-25-2012, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by sprink58 View Post
My take on all of this is that there appears to be a healthy market for good used, clean, turn-key performance boats in the under $25K price range.

Examples would be early '80's to mid '90's Formulas, Welcrafts, Chris Crafts, Bajas, Sonics, etc that were popular 25~30 years ago.
Boy, you nailed me 6 months ago. We had a good few years, income averaging around $100k and after being frugal for many many years, decided to jump in and have fun with the kids. A new 32' camper, another used suburban and the 86 - 272 formula all in one year came to about $45k, which is or should be paid for by the end of this year. If I hadn't bought the burb and camper, I would have been in the market for a decent boat, but as such I got the older formula.

Now I am glad i did. After digging into this thing, literally, I am not as overwhelmed by the prospect of rebuilding a boat. If I like the offshore game, I figure I might look for a 30 to 32' formula, scarab or baja and just plan on a complete restore that will take me a year or two while I enjoy the 272. Seperate the deck and hull, replace any wood that is wet, yank the drives and motors and start over. Pay cash for everything and I think for $30k I could have a like new boat in the end. Now I am lucky and have the resources to do the work myself and the place to do it, so not saying it is for everyone.

But when I look at the list price of a new 292 formula with twin 350's is about $200,000 on a trailer (+ options), it makes me cough! I do not know how much they discount them, but even if it is 25% that is going to be over $150,000! Just the tax check will be $10,500 which i what I will end up having in my 272 with fresh 350 vortecs! So while I thought about upgrading to a new boat like a 288 sunsation, I think I will be way ahead keeping it a fun hobby and rebuilding the older stuff. I enjoy projects like that so it is worth it to me. heck, I wonder about a 31 Scarab or 311 with small blocks in front of B1's? The new truck motors are making some nice power, would still be faster than the stock 330's they used to come with. Maybe crazy, I am sure someone has / will do it many times before I am ready to go. anyone have a beat up 31' boat that needs restoring in a year?????!!!!

I do not see me ever taking part in the future of buying a new performance boat in the 30' range, just don't see it happening.

Brian
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Old 02-25-2012, 03:43 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by befu View Post
Yep, the definition of rich is "anyone who makes more than me". Doesn't matter where you are. If you lease your gulfstream jet, you look at the ones who own them as rich.

Brian
I'll somewhat agree with the first sentence, if the only thought is of $$$. Some of the richest folks I know of don't necessarily have all that much money. They are truly rich in other areas, such as family.

As to the second part, although I'm not lucky to be one of these folks, I'm in the business. I can honestly say I don't know anyone who leases a Gulfstream that thinks the owner of one as 'rich'. Once at this level, you have reached the 'definition'.
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Old 02-26-2012, 05:47 PM
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This is an awesome thread. very real!

Now that we agree on the issues and how unaffordable boats have become, what numbers can we tell the OL's, Skaters, Cigs, what price point they need to be at to allow the common man the joys of boatings' past? Maybe they need to introduce an entry-entry level boat.

Would a 80K turnkey deep-V return boating to what it once was, back to the common boater? How about a turnkey 70K single cat or a 99K twin cat?

If we're not too picky, I think that there are still some companies out there that can meet those numbers?

off the top of my head:

superboat - Y2K 30 feet with non-race engine

predator - C30 twin 200HP Pro XS

activator - ??? is Mark still building 27's?

kryptonite - special order only
Mark is at Rage Powerboats and is building a new 27- also building a 30 and a 32 I believe. I've seen the new 27 run and it is sick!
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Old 02-26-2012, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael1 View Post
Having worked as a mechanical engineer myself, I agree with you. The problem people have is the boat designs and parts haven't changed much at all in the past 20 years, but the prices for the same products have skyrocketed.

Michael
X2.. Just go back through your performance magazines from early to mid 90s and you see little in the way of dramatic change in exterior/interior look.

But man, just look at the prices. But the manufactures excuse is the cost of materials such as resins and fiberglass. This cost does not equate to the drastic increase.
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