On the subject of Safety.....and flames
11-14-2013 | 12:27 PM
#12
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 59
Likes: 38
We have beaten the cockpit safety topic to death it seems and for good reason. However it appears that another potentially catastrophic scenario is developing with little attention ...so far.
Turbine fires....
Many of you are aware that the Geico Mystic was lost to a fire, but are you also aware that fires occurred on two of Al Copelands older Turbine powered Skaters...one of which was completely lost during a test ride with Tony Caligiure on the throttles? This week fire was also a factor in the brand new Qatar hull and seems to be a continuous issue with the "floating flame throwers". I am not advocating the banning of this type of power (although I think these over priced fuel guzzling monsters will do no more for the sport than their once vaunted 4 engined predecessers), but I do suggest that some research be done into why these fires are erupting so frequently. This will, no doubt, include the current engine builders (2) , but they should , by no means carry all of the clout, since their setups obviously have some flaws. The bottom line is Turbines carry blast furnace temperatures, flow tremendous quantities of fuel, and , based on the distinct fuel odor in every turbine cockpit I have ever sat in, leak prodigious amounts of excess Jet A. Is this fuel vapor/spray seeping into hull cores, upholstery, and insulating materials?.... or is something else afoot? I honestly have no idea, but we should do the math and find a plan to deal with the fire frequency BEFORE we write someone's obituary.
Nuff said
T2x
Turbine fires....
Many of you are aware that the Geico Mystic was lost to a fire, but are you also aware that fires occurred on two of Al Copelands older Turbine powered Skaters...one of which was completely lost during a test ride with Tony Caligiure on the throttles? This week fire was also a factor in the brand new Qatar hull and seems to be a continuous issue with the "floating flame throwers". I am not advocating the banning of this type of power (although I think these over priced fuel guzzling monsters will do no more for the sport than their once vaunted 4 engined predecessers), but I do suggest that some research be done into why these fires are erupting so frequently. This will, no doubt, include the current engine builders (2) , but they should , by no means carry all of the clout, since their setups obviously have some flaws. The bottom line is Turbines carry blast furnace temperatures, flow tremendous quantities of fuel, and , based on the distinct fuel odor in every turbine cockpit I have ever sat in, leak prodigious amounts of excess Jet A. Is this fuel vapor/spray seeping into hull cores, upholstery, and insulating materials?.... or is something else afoot? I honestly have no idea, but we should do the math and find a plan to deal with the fire frequency BEFORE we write someone's obituary.
Nuff said
T2x
), this chaps makes the most compelling points -the track record is absolutely horrendous. However it is also clear the reliability and safety issues are with the engineering and execution of the installations together with non factory approved modifications/operating parameters. Turbines in aircraft have unparalleled reliability and safety records. Turbines utilised in the marine environment with properly engineered installations also enjoy exemplary reliability and safety records. Just have a look at the military and cruise ship LM 2500 installations together with the TF40/50 installations (including those in the LCAC). ND1
11-14-2013 | 01:14 PM
#13
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 5,008
Likes: 752
From: Traverse City, Michigan
Thank You Rich. In our case, a high pressure oil line fitting failed in a cooler mounted up in the scoop. This resulted in a mist of oil spraying directly in the exhaust igniting the boat above the engine compartment rendering the halon useless. I my experience the exhaust temps have been the cause of most problems and we solved that with excess insulation. We never accounted for the freak accident we had. We really went back to the drawing board with our fire suppression system and Qatar subsequently purchased the same system designed for us with Gary Stray and it worked. The halon system works but does not cool and a fire can reignite when airflow is restored. Our system floods everything with foam from a series of nozzles ran all around the engine bays and cockpit.
Its not cheap, about 16k but alot less than a new boat
Scotty B
Its not cheap, about 16k but alot less than a new boat
Scotty B
11-14-2013 | 01:15 PM
#14
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,134
Likes: 160
From: central IL
As someone who is G.E. Gas & Steam Turbine certified and have done more new installs/rebuilds than I can remember, I've really enjoyed Knot Right's rebuild thread. Considering turbines are made to make enormous sustained power at continuous rpm, I'm actually surprised there aren't more failures the way they are throttled in boats. The fires actually aren't terrible failures considering what I've seen in the industrial field. I'd love to see how the drivetrain on a turbine boat works in person. There isn't much out there to read up on their running gear that I've found on the internet.
If you think those baby turbines are pricey, you'd **** if you knew what a big turbine cost. New HP rotor alone is $4 million...
11-14-2013 | 02:12 PM
#16
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,134
Likes: 160
From: central IL
Correct. Toshiba HP upgrade. It was years ago but I remember when coverted to horsepower it went from about 750,000hp to just over 1 million horsepower. I wanna say it was a 2 month project.
I've seen the aftermath of lots of gas turbine explosions but the doghouses usually contain it. Worst I've seen was a steam turbine that took out the turbine deck, walls, and most of the building above it.
I've seen the aftermath of lots of gas turbine explosions but the doghouses usually contain it. Worst I've seen was a steam turbine that took out the turbine deck, walls, and most of the building above it.
Last edited by Plowtownmissile; 11-14-2013 at 02:23 PM.
11-14-2013 | 03:38 PM
#17
Thread Starter
Allergic to Nonsense
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,007
Likes: 21
From: Granite Quarry, NC
In my dotage I keep forgetting how steps would help the hull below...remind me again... please. Also could someone call the nice lady...i need more happy pills and my drool is down to my shirt.
11-14-2013 | 03:54 PM
#19
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 736
Likes: 2
From: Port Richey, Florida
In that example you certainly don't need any steps...heck you don't even need a hull,... just strap that motor to a walker or wheelchair and PUNCH IT!!
Cheers,
Dave
Last edited by 78CIG24; 11-14-2013 at 04:41 PM.
