Don't forget the little aledged dispute with Don.....

Yea

It would be a little bit too convenient of a coincidence that some Colombians wanted Don dead about the same time that Ben was steaming because Don wouldn't give him back the Million under the table money after the Blue Thunder deal went South.

Those articles (links) are very helpful in determining his potential release, what would be very helpful is the disposition sheet from each court, The news papers tend to f*ck things up with sentencing; however, this is pretty good from your one link "The 35-year-old Ben Kramer is serving a life term on a 1988 drug-trafficking conviction in Illinois. He was convicted in the Bicycle Club case on 28 charges."

Then the 10 years and five months leads, consecutively me to believe even if the "21 U.S. Code § 848 - Continuing criminal enterprise" link you have posted sentencing guideline for which he as convicted is to be determined sentenced completed or parole eligible,then his sentence on the helicopter escape will start to toll.

It does not appear he is getting out of jail soon based on that information, unless wardens deem it so to be released, and Prosecutor(s) do not oppose his release then it is back to court for the Judge to decide.

I am sorry for not having read your entire post before posting my response in this thread.

Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not. When you sell boats to known drug dealers, and then sell boats to the government to catch these drug dealers, you're going to make some powerful enemies.

White Boy Rick was a snitch for the FBI and is still locked up on Michigan's 650 lifer law, I really can't see Kramer getting a pass with a Kingpin case and an escape attempt. Then again, Chris Paciello only did a nickel and some change for a murder rap, so anything is possible.....

Ben went to jail before the internet existed, safe to say in his incarceration he has probably little to no computer access nor would he understand a computer. As far as the boat business, not sure he was a "hands on" owner, meeting with clients, discussing details etc. That many years of incarceration surely doesn't stimulate the mind and I'm not sure how smart he was before jail. Sadly he could be in a "sling blade" mindset at this point.

He may or may not understand a computer to the degree by which we have computer literacy, but I would bet my life on it he gets mail, visits, or other inmates have family members which know about him, his boats, and follow stuff when his name comes up, you would be surprised how common that is among inmates to get that information about them. he may not aware of this specific thread, but he will told about it someday, by somebody, while he is still locked up, you forgot about the bulls (guards) who sometimes tell the inmates what is going on...I will speculate he knows what is being said about him on the internet albeit in a time-delayed awareness due to second feed(s).

I have no idea of his health or mental capacity and I will not speculate on that,

Kramer gets more love then most of the recent OSO crooks i.e. Big Chubby, Fred Cecil etc.

No apology necessary. We are just a few guy's talking, that's all.

I think what bothers most people about Ben Kramer is his connection with Don Aronow's murder. It overshadows his drug king pin status and prison escape attempt. A powerful stigma. It makes most people agree with his prison sentence concerning the other convictions. Ben tried to overturn it legally, but was unsuccessful.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...77161500,d.cWc

Here is a good read from the Miami Herald: Mel Kessler and the Kramers
http://www.officialcoldcaseinvestiga...mi-Drug-Lawyer

Aronow may have built a boat or 2 back in the old days under the assumption of " Hear no Evil See no Evil" back in the days with the old widebody 36s but as his notoriety with the honest money halves grew I think he had enough sense to steer clear of the shady characters ..

Of all the Cigarettes how often does anybody come along a purpose built on e from back in the day?

Also I used to go to the drug seizure auctions in Florida back in the 80s and looked at many of the offshore boats that were seized. Many were privately made poorly built like they had been laid up in the mold and pulled the same day and then had 500 gallon tanks stuffed in them

The whole Columbian story is bullchit.

I agree the Columbian story may be bullchit. But, he made plenty of deals with suitcases full of money. Just because most of the seized boats were junk that doesn't mean there weren't others out there. There were also plenty of drug dealers back then wanted a bad azz offshore boat a status symbol, and never even used the boat to smuggle.

I don't care about the drug charge...but chit..he was 35 when he went in? Dam...another young talented builder lost....now if he had anything to do with murder or don's death than F " him and feed him fish heads....

This whole story with Lanier, Ben Kramer, Aronow etc, Just reeks of a movie. Fleeing from federal charges, prison break attempt, drugs, boat and car racing...Hollywood should be all over this. The whole story is better than any movie I have ever seen.

If Miami vice kept us entertained, could you imagine?..............

Back in the day it was just away to make easy money . no killings .no crime. I can barely keep track of all the people on my 10 fingers that I have known personally that used to be in the trade in the day that had nothing to do with offshore boats .

This assumption that Don was getting suit cases of money comes from where?

And Colombians had nothing to do with weed they were Coke people.. all the weed back in the day was Mexican.

And just one more thing on these Columbians, who was this Cartel that has never been exposed nor convicted for smuggling. murders .etc.

Don was the King and Ben was the new punk that phucked with Don and Don had a chance to Phuck him back in the Blue Thunder deal and got murdered for it.

Maybe Ben will tell his story on OSO.....I wonder what his screen name would be???:popcorn:

Orange Jumpsuit

If you have watched Cocaine Cowboys I think the evolution of the story has something to do with why a lot of people think Kramer should rot. I wasn't there (I just lived within sight of the Cocaine highway, I-95 thru my teens and 20's back then and that's all I'm going to say) but I've talked to a lot of people who were there around those times. It’s funny how you can be researching a boat and the conversations you end up in. But from what I have gathered at first So FL had nothing going on. Your basic lawless (not needed) paradise where a lot of people from my area for some reason escaped to. I figure it was like the modern day probation or pirate days kind of town. Sure some knew something was going on but you mind your business and I will mind mine kind of thing. Then it became like the bar you started going to that no one knew and then it became real popular. I was still cool but at the same time it wasn't the old bar. Then it turned into an Animal House frat party. At that point you knew the cops were coming to break up the party but for now it was a party! But it wasn’t cops it was guys with big guns who would use them and for that matter didn't follow the rules even the mob had used. The party was over and in a dead woman found murdered floating in the pool way. Ben was the celebrity face of everyone that ruined the party.
IMHO they are right. Ben and the people like him (high profile shoot them up type) f_ed it up for everyone. I mean most knew it wasn’t going to last forever when it got to the frat party level but no one thought it was going to end like it did with guns a blazing. Up until then it may have been screwing up the rest of the country with their imports but So FL and all the way up I-95 benefited immensely even if you never touched a drug. Then it all went to crap and Kramer was in the middle of it all for killing an icon.
Not to mention that George Sr liked Don.

Owner/ModofSeriouslyOffshoreWebpage ?

This day and age with cops on the take and local officials he may of walked?:hitfan:It never stopped they just hired cops&coast guard to bring what ever to shore!George junior was snorting so I guess the father did like DON?He kept it quiet:whistle:

Cocaine dealers were making tons of money and quickly. They wanted their Ferraris and Cigs. I am not "bad mouthing" Don at all as this was just the way it was then. But, how can anyone think that he wasn't knowingly selling boats to drug dealers? Both weed and coke.

Interesting read from the good ole days.

tommymonza seems to be the most familiar with the industry in that era.

Everybody knew their roles back then, Don, Ben, Sal, Willie, the other Willie, and so on. They didn't step on each others business like some believe. And really, I don't think Don was as dirty as most want to assume...it makes for good stories, but he wasn't stupid. Yes, he would build boats for whoever could buy one, the money was green, but we all know who REALLY catered to those who had special needs in a custom purpose specific boat.

Ben was THE money man who built the Apache name to icon status through serious cash, racing and being a bad-boy. McManus was the brains behind the Apache boat business that had Ben's huge cash infusions to make it successful in spite of anything and everything - and he did it well.

Ben was a very VERY smart individual, a little cocky, but smart - do you really think that boat building would be at the top of his list if he was ever released? Why would he return to a business that is next to impossible to make money? And unless he spent millions and millions of dollars building a new boat business, what would/could he offer today that hasn't been done? Those days are gone, things have changed, there's nothing he could do to gain that fame - again.

He would most likely be under a magnifying glass if ever released... but it is interesting to wonder if he would take that as the ultimate challenge and try to get back into "the biz" and outsmart them again, or come up with some new and improved way to make serious cash. He was always cocky like that.

Or, would he simply just want to be left alone and try to enjoy life and take time to "smell-the-roses"?

Breaking bad?

Is Ben's brother Mark still in prison for his part in the failed helicopter escape ?

He should be out, he only faced a 10yr sentence

Long, but fascinating read!

On Aronows murder as it relates to Kramer; the government had no proof what-so-ever that Ben was involved. None, All conjecture and circumstantial evidence. They did have the shooter (Bobby Young). Young testified that some Colombians ordered the hit. Kramer's 'no contest' plea was nothing more than a plea of convenience just so he could get into a 'normal' prison. It had no bearing on his future since he got another 19 year sentence which would be served at the same time (concurrently) and not added onto his life sentence he already had.

The bottom line is simple: No-one will ever know who was behind the Aronow hit. There is no proof that ties anyone to the hit. The guy who dropped the pin is long-since dead. I say the murder is moot and irrelevant and he should be shown the door.

I believe you are wrong, there are several individuals who know who was behind the hit.... but you are right that they have not proved anything.

Although there were a few Purpose built Cig Haulers they where Not the Boat of Choice. Midnight Express sold 3-4 times as many haulers, The Outboard powered 37' was the boat of choice. That or Joe Debella's Quad I/O 40' SeaBird. Both could haul the freight (Both Loaded & Unloaded :) ) I used to Paint Boats for "People" :) One day they wanted it yellow, Then a few days later they wanted it to be Blue, Then Red, etc.. I wonder why that was :) I worked for one guy who had several of each of those. Usually at least one of each in Bimini at any given time. I think it was to haul the "Clear Becks" Beer cause you couldn't buy that in the states.....

Ben is that you??? :riding:

From the Article referenced here

Ten months before Mel Kessler and Ben Kramer were indicted together in South Florida, Don Aronow, Miami's most famous powerboat builder and racer, was murdered, shot in the chest by an unknown man while sitting in his car near the Fort Apache Marina on Thunderboat Row. At the time, Aronow was engaged in a business dispute with Ben Kramer. Aronow's friends say he had gotten the better of Kramer on a deal. Kramer hated to lose.
In March, Robert Young, a 41-year-old soldier of fortune, was charged with first-degree murder in the Aronow case. Police
suspect that Kramer was behind the hit and Young ended up with the contract. As of yet, though, homicide detectives have not found the connection to Kramer.
Nearly two years before he was indicted for murder in South Florida, Robert Young was charged with cocaine conspiracy in Oklahoma.
His lawyer was Mel Kessler.

I wish I had pic s of some of the wrecks from the auctions back in the day. Man few of them were rough..

The construction of the deck mold that the raised decks on a few that were obviously from the same manufacture looked like a 8th grader had built it, and than the hull side were so wavy you would get seasick looking at them.


However They were not Midnight Expresses but man you got to love that bold name for a Smuggling boat building company

What would blow me away was how much people were bidding on them I used to say that there has to be a load still hidden in the boat for what it was getting bidded up to.

Love the 37 Midnight's standard 1000 gal fuel capacity ( saw some that held 1200 gal ). Back in the 90's , I found a 38 Bertram In a Hialeah , Fl warehouse complex . It had staggered SSM3's , some rigging , no power ,but two of the biggest bomar hatches on the deck and crappy gunmetal grey paint ( top , bottom , rubrail, everything !). Eng. compartment was bright red. I tried to find info on it for a couple weeks , but nobody knew anything about it. Always wondered where it ended up ?

I was poking around some old marina in i think Tampa about 25 years ago and saw a old late 60s pacemaker that had a big grey tarp hanging over it and the slip it was sitting in .

But what struck me as weird is it had 2 big brand new Arnesons and Rollas hanging off the stern that I could see visible in the murky water.

It was a crummy rainy day and i was alone and drinking beer and being nosy so I poked my head under the tarp and came face to face with 2 guys of Cuban descent working under the tarp on installing to large turbine engines.

I did a about face and hauled azz down the dock and left.

When you see a half million dollars of hardware hanging off a old ten thousand dollar boat it looks a ;little suspicious.

I have always heard the "clear bottle becks" was the best but never able to find.

Dirty money!I put $50k motor work in a $35k boat no drug dealer here chit happens:readinghelp:

????

Thats what makes it a horse race. Regardless if someone knows or not, nobody is talking. The longer they hold, the more the story changes. Its like the old days of Cosa Nostra. They couldn't really prove that anyone did or ordered anything done. Thats why the government took the only path they could; tax evasion. That all changed around 1980 when the RICO statute was enacted.

You may not read this if you are a Liberal-Arts Mayor. Its about living ffast and breaks or break-outs or whatever, dunno:

http://xkcd.com/1428/