I have no idea how early release works. But, I have to assume that an escape attempt is a slight "blemish" on your record that would hinder your chances.

Cleaned my BOX

Ok after pouring over many other threads I get that the guy that was chosen by the goverment to run Bens Apache was Macmanus and he is the one that bought the Bens right to the Apache name after the U.S. goverment assured Mr Sacennti it would not be sold.

And than in 2005 there was a deal in which some investors in Indiana were teaming Chief and Bob Sacennti with Active Thunder and they built 1 new 41 Chief before the investors were found out to not have secured their investment sources.

So now I am on a old thread from 2004 that Steve built a new crisp 41 Apache deck plug and molds and some guy named Thad bought the Apache name from someone and wants to sue everyone.

LOT'S OF QUESTIONS, TOO MANY ANSWERS -
Do you believe that the US Government assured somebody that they could by the rights to a trademark of a business they were not part of? I doubt that. The government doesn't assure us of anything except that we will pay taxes. McManus was in charge of the Apache operation under Ben's instructions and was directly responsible for the growth of the Apache product (with Ben's cash) and if he was made the golden boy, it seems to be logical that he would have first right of refusal to buy the name, after all he built the name into a big business under both Ben's and the US Governments ownership.

This story just never ends. But look at it from a 10,000 foot view and its clear who was who, and who wasn't. When Ben was arrested, who was in charge of what?

Look at the oil pressure drop on the Port side motor at about 20 seconds into the video !!

Could it be he was just shutting that motor down? Not really a big deal just something I noticed.

That and the fuel gauge

Yes, off plane being shut down.
A beautiful full pleasure 41.

If I told you I have spoke with someone who witnessed the murder would you believe me or the person that I spoke with?

Escape Details

Ben Kramer and Marren were incarcerated together in the Williamson County Jail in Marion, Illinois, awaiting trial on related drug trafficking charges. In October 1988, Ben Kramer was found guilty of conducting a continuing criminal enterprise and conspiracy to distribute more than 1,000 pounds of marijuana, for which he was sentenced to life imprisonment without parole. Following the conclusion of the proceedings in Illinois, Ben Kramer was scheduled to be transferred to prison in Florida to face charges of RICO conspiracy, marijuana importation, and filing a false tax return.



In late October 1988, Marren wrote two letters to Stevens, with whom Marren had worked prior to the events pertinent to this case. Marren asked Stevens to come to Illinois to see him in prison, advised Stevens that he should plan to go to Miami, Florida, after he visited Marren, requested that Stevens bring his pilot's license, informed Stevens that all of his expenses would be paid, and emphasized the importance of keeping their meeting a secret. After receiving Marren's letters, Stevens went to Illinois. During their visit, Marren pointed out Ben Kramer to Stevens as Kramer walked by. Marren also supplied Ben Kramer's brother, Marc, with a letter of introduction to Stevens.

Stevens met Marc Kramer in Illinois, and they then traveled together to Miami, where they began to plan Ben Kramer's escape from prison and transport to Columbia. While in Miami, Stevens took reconnaissance photographs of prisons where Ben Kramer was likely to be held awaiting trial, began looking for a helicopter, and began taking lessons to learn to fly a helicopter. All of his expenses were paid by Marc Kramer. Stevens eventually located and purchased a helicopter and a twin-engine airplane. The plane sustained wing damage during a routine maintenance operation, so he purchased a second plane. Stevens paid for the aircraft with approximately $135,000 in cash provided to him by Marc Kramer. Stevens continued to take flying lessons from the initial planning stages of the escape until the plan was put into effect. Marc and Ben Kramer maintained telephone contact during this time, often utilizing coded phrases in their conversations.

After Ben Kramer was tried and sentenced in Illinois, he was transported to Florida to face trial. He was held in E Unit at the Metropolitan Correctional Center in Miami ("MCC").


The plan developed by the appellants called for Ben Kramer to be lifted out of MCC by helicopter.2 Stevens was to fly the helicopter to the prison and land in the exercise yard, where Ben Kramer would be waiting. Stevens was to then fly him to a nearby car containing a false compartment in which he would be hidden. Zona, an employee of a business owned by Ben Kramer, was scheduled to drive the car to a safe house Zona had rented in Crystal River, Florida. The twin-engine airplane, which had been fitted with extra fuel tanks, was located near the safe house. As the final part of the escape, Stevens was to fly Ben Kramer to Columbia.


On April 17, 1989, Ben Kramer spoke by telephone with Marc Kramer. Marc Kramer then telephoned Stevens and directed him to put the plan into action. Stevens flew the helicopter to MCC and landed in the E Unit exercise yard. Ben Kramer was able to get into the helicopter, but as it lifted off, the helicopter began to spin, its tail hit the concertina wire, and it catapulted over the fence, crashing in the prison grounds outside the exercise yard. Both Ben Kramer and Stevens suffered extensive injuries in the crash

Apache Gettin It https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niwjMgDl02k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pDV7vHF2G4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whQ3cl9UR2w


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_6vdTEChas

http://americanpowerboattv.endavomed...ee_channel=743

Look on this link on the right for 1.2 million dollar Apaches and the other is

Apache origins

Tommy you and justabum might jut have a new dos equis commercial. Very interesting even though I don't know any of the players, couldn't make this up could you? what a saga and a testament to the 80s, to bad I was 3000 miles away. :ernaehrung004:

Lucy on here I believe keeps regular contact with ben. he is aware of oso and has read threads about himself here.

as the sticker on my drive guard says "free ben Kramer"

http://www.bop.gov/inmates/communications.jsp
Restrictions
Each inmate must be approved to use the system and each person that an inmate wants to communicate with must give their permission to do so.
Inmates access to TRULINCS is controlled and inmates do not have access to the internet.

If he is only guilty of Importation I believe it is a crime against him for doing the time he has done.A few years at most for the laundering thing but hey I would do that for the money,

Now if he had anything to do with a murder that is a whole different story. One thing if it is another person in the biz that deserved it for possibly a previous killing but if he had anything to do with Aronow whether he was screwed or not by him ,killing him was not the way to handle it.

I will ask anyone on here how they would feel if someone they loved husband, wife, father and mother or god forbid their children were murdered for revenge..

Hey I hope some evidence surfaces and the previous charges against him for the Aronow dealings are found to be false . If they can positively prove that some other person .group or Cartel had something to do with it

But so far the jury and the timing weighs on the disagreement Ben had with Aronow that was outstanding.

From a Original Quote by Mr Saccenti


In 1982, I brought the Kramer’s into Apache as my partners, sold my interest in Hawk Marine Power and absorbed Race Headquarters, its crew and all its equipment into Apache. The first order of business was to produce the baddest wave buster’s money could buy. Since the tooling for my new 39’ offshore was still months away from completion, I went to the King himself, Don Aronow, and made arrangements to purchase a new 41’ mold he had just completed. The first boat out of the mold was blue and tan and Benny called it “Warpath”.



Ok I just figured out who is in possession of the 39 mold that Mr Saccenti mentions that he was in the process of building for his own company before partnering up with Ben and buying the infamous 41 Apache mold from Aronow.

That mold he speaks about was the mold that was stolen and recovered is now back in the hands of Banana boat company who bought it from him.

Now where did the 41 mold come from that Saber had?


And who was the Company out of Ohio he mentioned that was building half price Apaches?

Also what ever happened to the new 41 straight and step molds that Steve built for Thad Allen?

A Inquiring mind wants to know?

I believe paper copies have been given to him.

There is a saying - don't EVER mess with a man's money or his wife. And in the 80's/90's revenge was a "thing".

Contraband

Sooo Jusabum What brings you to this site and to just happen to post here?

Oh ok...thanks. I just needed to understand a good reason for premeditated murder, now that it's just a "thing" I think I'll go out and whack some people, kinda bored today, need something to pick me up.

Hey you can't do that anymore that was the 80s

If you look into modern law now they got that THING listed as someTHING you are not supposed to do anymore

Indy, "thing" used in this instance is an underworld term. It is used to describe how the criminal empire operates. If they feel someone wrongs them, they are eliminated. Thereby removing the offender and carving it in the street that this is what future offenders can expect. Lethal retaliation. Hope this helps.

Don't know where the Saber molds came from/how they were aquired (they have the 47 mold too I think?) Im sure its buried on OSO somewhere. Not sure who hes referring to in Ohio, NuTech? This was all before Checkmate used the NuTech molds for the 43 Punisher. Not really sure of the exact time line and how it all went down.

Pantera bought the briefly lived "new" apache molds. Think they only built maybe 2?

:)

Ok so the new straight bottom and step molds went to Pantera and they than sold Sunsation a hull that they changed the bottom and made a mold off for their line.

Never heard of NuTech

So the ? is where did Saber get the 41 and possibly 47 mold from?

While on Saber what happened with that deal who invested in it was that Vorce? and what did Parnell have to do with it was he running it also with the original brothers that started Saber ?

well it still fly's here,,look at chicagos death toll,,hell on the south side they use each other for target practice!!

[QUOTE=tommymonza;4205292
While on Saber what happened with that deal who invested in it was that Vorce? and what did Parnell have to do with it was he running it also with the original brothers that started Saber ?[/QUOTE]

Vorce used his name and phony money to try to buy in. Parn got screwed by him and lost dough. Doug Geelhol is the owner of Saber I don't know who his brother is and he also got screwed by Vorce. Saber had the molds I believe for a while even before the whole Vorce thing. I know there is more to it but I only know part of the story.

How did Parnell get screwed by Vorce did he pay him for a 41 to be built by Saber that Vorce bought into?

Vorce was using Saber to produce the fake boats and titles correct?

Oh ok...I just watch some college football instead. Didn't really feel like leaving the house today anyway :D

SOO you sabing dat TING Ah for ah TOMWOW than EH?

Nah...Sunday...family before business :grinser010:

[QUOTE=tommymonza;4205084]From a Original Quote by Mr Saccenti


In 1982, I brought the Kramer’s into Apache as my partners, sold my interest in Hawk Marine Power and absorbed Race Headquarters, its crew and all its equipment into Apache. The first order of business was to produce the baddest wave buster’s money could buy. Since the tooling for my new 39’ offshore was still months away from completion, I went to the King himself, Don Aronow, and made arrangements to purchase a new 41’ mold he had just completed. The first boat out of the mold was blue and tan and Benny called it “Warpath”.



Ok I just figured out who is in possession of the 39 mold that Mr Saccenti mentions that he was in the process of building for his own company before partnering up with Ben and buying the infamous 41 Apache mold from Aronow.

That mold he speaks about was the mold that was stolen and recovered is now back in the hands of Banana boat company who bought it from him.






Well done Tommy........now the rest of the puzzle is right there between the lines, look closer and you will see.....

Any hints Charlie?

I love a good Mystery

I know nothing............

But that former 39 will soon be a 42 .........with a new deck design that features a bustle.

Which became the 42 Aronow correct?

AH Nope I was way off. That 42 is something for the future not from the past

Didn't Ben originally get one over on Aronow in a mold deal and that was the beginning of the riff between them?

Was the 41 mold that Don had sold or leased to Apache and was that mold any really that much different than a 38 Cigarette at the time or just a little longer ?


Was the 38 Flatdeck Cigarette in production yet?

Tommy.....so many questions so little time, focus!!!

If someone took a 39 like Elswick and Martin and Trotta ran and stretched it and made a mold, it might turn out two feet longer.

Flatdeck 38's were just a 39 footer like above mentioned and made in a blocked down mold. The deck, since there was no mold for it, was just a flat deck race deck from the 36 .......that had the walkways cut down to fit and then they glassed it to the narrower 37.5 ...not 38.

Incidentally the throttleman for that new 37.5, which at some point in the future would be known as the Top Gun, was none other than Mr. Saccenti

Once the stern of the boats was accepted as the best running surface, they cut in front of the cockpit and added the new length in there. Presto changeo and you have a new model. And the world will forever question what happened.

I think it was more of a I put in x amount of dough and you put in x amount type of thing. Parn already had his 41 at the time BTW I loved Ancestrial Spirit. I think WW was for sale at the time and Vorce was going to "broker" the boat and that is how WW got caught up in the mess. I again can't remember all of it but that is the basics of it. Parn and Doug are very cool guys and it really sucked for them

Thank You Charlie for taking the time to answer my never ending questions.

You gentleman from the Golden Era of Offshore are a absolute treat to have on here. Your knowledge and comprehension of the history is irreplaceable.

Love the Stories. Thank you

Few more questions if you feel up to it.

Was the 39 mold that you bought from Mr Saccenti also just a stretch of a 35 cigarette but maybe stretched in a different area of the hull as far as stern to bow ?

Also was there any 39s built from Mr Saccentis mold before he sold it to you?