hard lessons.
#111
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,863
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From: St. Pete Beach, FL
Hey jusabum, You are naive if you think any of these super high performance cats are "designed by guesswork at best" and have not been engineered. Computer Aided Design has been in use for many years now. I can assure you that there are thousands of hours in hydrodynamic testing both real and computer generated to insure quality products that are viable for the intended market. There is no manufacturer that wants the stigma of this tragedy associated with it's brand.
#112
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Joined: Jan 2006
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From: St. Pete Beach, FL
No one knows how much which factors contributed to the crash. You're all speculating based on your personal biases.
Obviously alcohol rarely helps. the risks are well known documented. But I think everyone wants to blame that because they love big high performance boats.
Fast cats have a couple of crash modes, and due to their high speeds, passenger ejections aren't very survivable in them.
A. Backflip due to packing air and cg being near the back of the boat
B. Roll due going on one sponson which then steers itself under the boat.
C. Fast singles have added risk of not having props with countering forces.
I think a big light cat probably gives a false sense of security. If the tunnel area to weight ratio is similar, and the speeds scaled up, its no less of risk to flip than as smaller cat.
Obviously alcohol rarely helps. the risks are well known documented. But I think everyone wants to blame that because they love big high performance boats.
Fast cats have a couple of crash modes, and due to their high speeds, passenger ejections aren't very survivable in them.
A. Backflip due to packing air and cg being near the back of the boat
B. Roll due going on one sponson which then steers itself under the boat.
C. Fast singles have added risk of not having props with countering forces.
I think a big light cat probably gives a false sense of security. If the tunnel area to weight ratio is similar, and the speeds scaled up, its no less of risk to flip than as smaller cat.
#113
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Joined: Jun 2010
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From: Central IL / Green Bay, WI
False, it's all done by trial and error, theories and ideas. Design changes occur model by model, perhaps boat by boat. The judgment criteria is speed. If the handling "feels" really bad, they might rework it. Computer aided design is just that, design software. It's not a dynamic model.
Dynamic is right in the name.
#114
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Joined: Feb 2010
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From: Plano, Texas
Any trouble with the rest of my spelling or punctuation?

#115
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Joined: Oct 2014
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HOGIE ROLL SAID IT PERFECTLY:
it's all done by trial and error, theories and ideas. Design changes occur model by model, perhaps boat by boat. The judgment criteria is speed. If the handling "feels" really bad, they might rework it. Computer aided design is just that, design software. It's not a dynamic model.
#116
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Joined: Oct 2014
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CATAMARAN.
Hydrodynamics - sponson lift.
Aerodynamics - a semi-wing effect creating lift.
The tunnel design creates compression, lightening the boat, reducing drag.
Thrust trying to overcome Drag, moving the boat forward creating inertia.
Lift trying to overcome Gravity and Drag to create speed.
Water changing the angle of attack, mixed signals.
Throttles creating more push, or less, depending on perceived circumstance
Driver, thinking he has control, adjusting the angle of attack and direction.
All of this was not a big deal at speeds in the 90's, gravity and drag seemed to always bring the boat back from borderline disaster (in most cases). But every length has its limit, or hull speed as the used to call it. So, the boats got longer, and lighter, allowing for more speed and some perceived stability.
But we are exceeding the limits now. At a certain point of speed, to weight, to running surface, there is no difference than strapping a jet engine on a flat board.
We are seeing speeds increased beyond the point of no return, the boat naturally wants to fly after a certain point. Gravity plays less of a role as lift becomes the dominate factor.
Without flight controls, the boat is at the mercy of lift and inertia. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUVSEcePCr8
Hydrodynamics - sponson lift.
Aerodynamics - a semi-wing effect creating lift.
The tunnel design creates compression, lightening the boat, reducing drag.
Thrust trying to overcome Drag, moving the boat forward creating inertia.
Lift trying to overcome Gravity and Drag to create speed.
Water changing the angle of attack, mixed signals.
Throttles creating more push, or less, depending on perceived circumstance
Driver, thinking he has control, adjusting the angle of attack and direction.
All of this was not a big deal at speeds in the 90's, gravity and drag seemed to always bring the boat back from borderline disaster (in most cases). But every length has its limit, or hull speed as the used to call it. So, the boats got longer, and lighter, allowing for more speed and some perceived stability.
But we are exceeding the limits now. At a certain point of speed, to weight, to running surface, there is no difference than strapping a jet engine on a flat board.
We are seeing speeds increased beyond the point of no return, the boat naturally wants to fly after a certain point. Gravity plays less of a role as lift becomes the dominate factor.
Without flight controls, the boat is at the mercy of lift and inertia. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUVSEcePCr8
Last edited by jusabum; 04-13-2017 at 06:24 PM.
#117
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Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 250
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From: MN
How many of you make better decisions when drunk?
How many domestics or stupid fights happen because people are drunk vs sober?
How many athletes perform better when they are drunk vs sober?
How many people have called a girl at night drunk and woke up the next morning thinking what was I thinking?
These are all decision making skills that are effected by being drunk!
Driving a boat requires decision making skills at all times as well as reaction time and processing skills to be at a high level. If your driving your car at 75 mph and you think its fast, now drive 125 mph and come up on a car going 75 mph. You better have your decision making skills on high alert.
Now do that in a boat that is not on a flat surface, in fact a very rough surface with rolling waves coming at you and no brakes.
Drunk skills will not make you react better or decide better things like maybe I should slow down or I cant read the water very good maybe I shouldnt push it.
People are loving to pick on the Cat boats for being unsafe. Every kind of boat has a safe speed they can and should be able to run. When you push it past that point your running into safety issues in a cat, a sport v bottom, a center console, fishing boat, every boat is designed to run safely to a certain speed. If you push them past that speed you could start to run into safety problems. This is no different from any type of car/truck/motorcycle,v bottom boat or Catamaran boat.
As the boats are getting faster the designs are getting different, move steps, strakes, notches, pads, width, on and on... I wouldn't want to take a 80's checkmate and go run 100 mph.
A 36' cat going almost 200 seems sketchy but honestly anything nearing that 200 mark on water or land seems sketchy.
There was a V bottom at the shootout last August who crashed by chine walking and spinning out at about 80 mph. That doesnt make all v bottoms unsafe it just means that particular setup and driver found the limits on that day.
All boats and cars have there limits, sometimes you may be able to push past them but it better be the right time and right place and then there still is no guarantees.
How many domestics or stupid fights happen because people are drunk vs sober?
How many athletes perform better when they are drunk vs sober?
How many people have called a girl at night drunk and woke up the next morning thinking what was I thinking?
These are all decision making skills that are effected by being drunk!
Driving a boat requires decision making skills at all times as well as reaction time and processing skills to be at a high level. If your driving your car at 75 mph and you think its fast, now drive 125 mph and come up on a car going 75 mph. You better have your decision making skills on high alert.
Now do that in a boat that is not on a flat surface, in fact a very rough surface with rolling waves coming at you and no brakes.
Drunk skills will not make you react better or decide better things like maybe I should slow down or I cant read the water very good maybe I shouldnt push it.
People are loving to pick on the Cat boats for being unsafe. Every kind of boat has a safe speed they can and should be able to run. When you push it past that point your running into safety issues in a cat, a sport v bottom, a center console, fishing boat, every boat is designed to run safely to a certain speed. If you push them past that speed you could start to run into safety problems. This is no different from any type of car/truck/motorcycle,v bottom boat or Catamaran boat.
As the boats are getting faster the designs are getting different, move steps, strakes, notches, pads, width, on and on... I wouldn't want to take a 80's checkmate and go run 100 mph.
A 36' cat going almost 200 seems sketchy but honestly anything nearing that 200 mark on water or land seems sketchy.
There was a V bottom at the shootout last August who crashed by chine walking and spinning out at about 80 mph. That doesnt make all v bottoms unsafe it just means that particular setup and driver found the limits on that day.
All boats and cars have there limits, sometimes you may be able to push past them but it better be the right time and right place and then there still is no guarantees.
#118
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From: St. Pete Beach, FL
#119
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,863
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From: St. Pete Beach, FL
I don't think it's fair to imply that all boat types are inherently as dangerous as each other. The only people with statistics to back that up would be insurance companies. The difference in insurance rates between boat types should give you a good idea of the relative risks.
#120
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Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 250
Likes: 37
From: MN
A V running 150 and a cat running 150 mph rates are similar if value is similar
A V running 110 and a cat running 110 mph rates are similar if value is similar
The real difference is there is very few V's running 120+ and alot of Cats running 120+
There are no production V's running 165+ and several production 165+ cats
A V running 110 and a cat running 110 mph rates are similar if value is similar
The real difference is there is very few V's running 120+ and alot of Cats running 120+
There are no production V's running 165+ and several production 165+ cats


