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Old 12-05-2002, 11:06 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally posted by 25 Eagle
Looking at the LOTO shootout the boat in the V1S1 class ran 67mph. Maybe T2x could shed a little light on this.
If I am reading your question correctly, it is why does your boat GPS at a higher speed than this equivalent boat. First and foremost speed comparisons need to be made on equivalent days and equivalent weights, temperature, humidity, course conditions etc. A lot was made of the tightness of the LOTO course, the boat wakes and the acceleration portion of the shootout. I don't believe you saw actual top speeds from most of the boats but rather maximum speed atttained after the acceleration portion. The only way to measure your boat against another is in true apples to apples comparisons.

H2o Warrior: As to the Sutphen statements....Ocean Spray was a Scarab not a Sutphen. The last Sutphen kilo record was in Factory 2 and was broken , I believe, only in the past 2 years. The Sutphen set that record in the late 90's even while racing against almost exclusively step bottom boats. The latest business plan that I keep referring to which basically encourages major boat manufacturer sponsorship "advantages" has made it more politically and financially advantagious for a racer to campaign and promote a series approved sponsor's(Donzi, Formula, Cigarette, and Fountain depending upon the moon phase) hull than a small builders....hence my cautionery comments about not believing everything you read.......... Most recently the new Skater Vee was not allowed to run in Super Vee Lite at Key West, even with approved Mercruiser 525 packages, because it was not good politically or marketing wise for the sanctioning body to have it beat GM Vortec powered boats.....especially in light of the GM "Series Sponsorship" press release following immediately on the heels of that race. This is certainly good business, but doesn't mean that Vortecs are faster than Mercruiser 525's.

Finally Tom: Peter is a friend of mine and I respect him and his ability greatly. He is certainly the foremost race boat designer builder in the world at present. That does not mean that I blindly agree with everything he does. Both he and I have made honest mistakes in creating boats.....and we agree to disagree.

My issues with the Bat boat have more to do with the fanaticism that it engenders than in its design. The little devil does a number of things well....and a number of things not so well. Therein is the problem.......... According to its proponents it is faster, safer, better in rough water, blah blah blah. Fine! Say 10 Hail Ocke's and leave the rest of us alone. But I have seen people carried out of them with severe back injuries, know of people who were in one when it stuffed at the Miami boat show, and seen racers unintentionally cut off by one in boat races due to the aforementioned directional stability issues.

On the other hand I believe it is faster than most equivalent size vee bottoms, with the exception of the Buzzi RIB, which got the better of it in most head up competitions that I personally witnessed. As to whether a 28 Bat boat is faster than a 28 Skater, I strongly doubt it, but maybe in Europe there is a one that goes 128. In Europe they also use Formula 1 and Drag power heads that put out considerably more than 300 hp and spin at up to 9500 RPM...... I'm talking pure apples to apples.
If a twin outboard Bat boat beats a 28 Skater day in and day out ....That's great...and I will stand corrected. Until then it will stand in my mind as a cute little odyssey and a never ending attempt to make a monohull overcome its basic limitations in comparison to a cat....while losing most of the advantages like cockpit room ...and a cabin.

T2x

Last edited by T2x; 12-05-2002 at 11:08 AM.
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Old 12-05-2002, 11:57 AM
  #82
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The APBA F1 Kilo is held by a Stepp bottom boat. Is that anything like a step bottom boat? I agree that Stepp's are faster.

Sutphen F2 record was in 98 or 99, not that long ago. Doug Lewis was on the throttles and they carried the weight of a third person. I'd love to see them out there racing again. With the rough water schedule they'd kick a lot of a$$.
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Old 12-05-2002, 12:28 PM
  #83
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T2x,
That was a great post as were so many of the other 50 of yours I read last night. You really know your stuff. As regards the comedy/pissing contest, it was geat fun but I need to drink a lot of water before i can get the little thing to work again. I really know very little about boat technology and am truly just curious and interested, even niave and gullable.

I really like this thread. So far I have learned:

The nina, pinta, and santa maria must have had steps since boards are only 12 feet long and the overlap during construction creates steps. I wonder if it goes all the way back to the Viking Ships and that's where Ocke got it from.

Steps were invented way back in the late 1800's or early 1900's, supposedly made the boats go faster - maybe because they were so heavy in the water. Some guys posted some cool historical pictures that got overlooked by the contest and we should all go back and take another look at them.

Steps were tried off and on until the boom in the ninetys with varying success. Not much solid evidence has been published as to why or how they work.

Marketing departments caused the boom in steps and most of them were either afterthoughts on existing boats or poorly designed ones. Some great builders went along with the boom. Seems like the stock market had the same experience. What's with the nineties and sheep like behavior?

There are so many factors that it is really hard to identify direct cause effect for any one component. To me that's what makes boating such a blast; 100, 80, 60, even 30 in a boat seems so much faster and more fun than in a car or airplane, especially in rough water.

Steps make the boat less stable and cause spin outs. I'd really like to hear more about that. Is it worth the ? mph gain? What is the mph gain? I think this is the main point T2x has been trying to make.

People have gone to great lengths to effect the wetted surface and even the aerodynamics to the point of obsurdity. Speed rails seem like one of those since the thread about them is not so positive. Ocke seemed ambivalent when I asked him and he let go of the patent. Mike J. said they were removed from the RainX boat, i'd love to hear more from Mike. Some of those attempts have lead to the phenominal increase in speed over the last decade. I was reading the Skater site last night and in the early nineties it was a big deal to break 100, today they are trying 200. I love the attempts to push the edge, others want it to stay the same.

batboat owners are at least as fanatical as cigarette, fountain, skater, etc., but are stuck between V and cat fans so have nobody but themselves to defend their point of view, which is a very strange point indeed. Men are from mars and women are from Venus (derived from other threads). V boats look like a penis, cats like a vagina, maybe that's why the owners will never understand each other. Does that make batboat guys hermaphrodites?

In a few years all of our boats will be antiques and people will marvel at the crazy things we tried. Maybe one or two of our attempts will be part of the next technology. I can't imagine any more fun than today and can't wait to get back in my boat. I would love a ride in somebody elses and will gladly take just about anybody for a ride in mine just to share the fun. What really sucks about mine though is if you are over 6'1" you can't fit.

Last edited by Tom; 12-05-2002 at 12:31 PM.
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Old 12-05-2002, 01:01 PM
  #84
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I THINK SUTPHEN HELD THE F2 KILO RECORD '97 '98 &'99 WITH NO STEPS AND STILL DON'T HAVE STEPS. OF COURSE THAT WAS WITH OUT OF BOX FROM MERCRUISER HP 500'S. OH THOSE WERE THE DAYS OF A TEAMS DRIVING AND A BOAT DESIGN WHEN YOU WON ON YOUR OWN MERITS. OTHER TEAMS HAD CLOSED ENGINE COMPARTMENTS, GUTLESS CHARGING SYSTEMS AND ON AND ON. IT'S JUST COMPANIES TELLING JOHNQ PUBLIC THAT HE REALLY NEEDS STEPS BECAUSE BASICALLY THEIR DESIGNS ARE JUST CARBON COPIES OF EACH OTHER. STEPS ARE FOR BOATS THAT WON'T RIDE ON TOP OF THE WATER. I AM SURE THAT I HAVE MADE SOME PEOPLE MAD. BUT I THINK T2X WOULD AGREE.
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Old 12-05-2002, 01:17 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally posted by MSGANGWAY
OH THOSE WERE THE DAYS OF A TEAMS DRIVING AND A BOAT DESIGN WHEN YOU WON ON YOUR OWN MERITS.
You won't make anyone mad unless you keep posting all caps.

If there really are competitive boats that have bucked the trend for steps that sure would prove the non-step fans correct. You can't include pads though because aren't they just another way to do the same thing, reduce wetted surface and change the attitude in the water?

I know it is off topic, but then so has a lot of this thread been , but those pad bottom boats; do they spin out? how do they land? handle rough water?
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Old 12-05-2002, 02:25 PM
  #86
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Tom:

Welcome back to earth. We really aren't from different planets after all, and your synopsis was very well thought out and written.......

The pad bottoms are a legitimate variant on the vee bottom design in that they do increase speed, in some cases dramatically. The pad provides a stable surface for the boat to ride on (semi flat) at high speed, rather than an unstable surface (20-26 degree vee point). Basically the fastest planing surface is flat and at no more than a 5 degree attack angle or less. That is why Ski Racing runabouts (SK's) utilize that simple design so successfully. The price, of course, is unacceptably hard impacts in rough water. The Vee on the other hand sacrifices more speed with each increasing degree of deadrise........(all things being equal) ..... and the strakes (which were originally called "steps" by the way, as in Glastron's early "V Step" hull designations) were added to offset this speed loss while adding needed stability, and made the vee design practical as a concept (Thank you's to Ray Hunt). Strake placement and size is another variable that few people really understand.

The Vee-Pad hull was originally created by Paul Allison and I characterized that as the first real evolutionary moment in modern Vee bottom history. (See "Great Moments in Vee Bottom History"........a thread available in OSO's archives). Steve Stepp
started out racing Allisons and successfully grafted the concept to Offshore designs. George Linder's peerless 21' Challenger hull (Which later became our Shadow 21) actually predated the Velocity, I believe, but also utilized a smaller pad area with more deadrise.

During the early OPC race years( 1960-80) horizontal steps(todays topic) were illegal on Factory vee hulls, so there was a curiosity around their speed potential (That's basically why George and I experimented with them in 1981). This rules logic dated back to the early race craft pictured above in this thread, and at the Antique Race events. Since they worked to some extent in speeding up Gar Wood, they were always considered a speed increasing appendage, or modification.....( in some cases they were actually added on to an existing hull). They undeniably do two things. (1)Create a break in the planing surface for better or worse and (2)introduce bubbles or voids in the area immediately aft of their placement (If not sufficiently ventilated to allow this, they actually reduce speed through drag and vacuum effects). My points, as you said, are based around these two phenomenon. (1) The speed increases, at best, are illusive and, at worst, non existent. (2) The loss of contact with the water surface and the introduction of air create an unacceptably slippery condition in turns, thereby contributing to spinouts and increasing the degree of difficulty in proceeding through corners.

And that...as they say ...............is all I can say....on the topic.

T2x.................zeroing in on obsolescence.

Last edited by T2x; 12-05-2002 at 02:28 PM.
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Old 12-05-2002, 06:19 PM
  #87
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T2x,

Now wait a second, about this penis thing........



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Old 12-05-2002, 11:54 PM
  #88
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I just keep diggin' the history being tossed out here. Very informative and BTW impressive...
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Old 12-06-2002, 12:34 AM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally posted by T2x
The Vee-Pad hull was originally created by Paul Allison and I characterized that as the first real evolutionary moment in modern Vee bottom history. (See "Great Moments in Vee Bottom History"........a thread available in OSO's archives). Steve Stepp
started out racing Allisons and successfully grafted the concept to Offshore designs. George Linder's peerless 21' Challenger hull (Which later became our Shadow 21) actually predated the Velocity, I believe, but also utilized a smaller pad area with more deadrise.
T2x,
Thanks for the great info. Is Allison the boat that used to compete with Hydrostream? A friend of mine Jim Contzen is running Hydrostream now and with an engineer is working on the next generation. And I thought I was nuts , 100+ is those boats is crazy. I'd much rather run an offshore boat in rough water than worry about hitting a wave and flipping over.

The Challenger, did it go by many names? I remember almost buying one several years ago that had a step bottom and handled very well. Very popular with the Lake Tahoe crowd. Too small for San Francisco Bay except for calm days. It was what got me into wanting an offshore boat though.

Steve Stepp, Is he the maker of Velocity? I had a friend with one and it really flys for the horsepower. Rode pretty rough though.

Steve David,
Didn't you drive the batboat in a race once? Did you stay in your lane? My wife told me she would give me some early this month if I quit talking about the penis thing. What is your opinion of steps?
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Old 12-06-2002, 01:06 AM
  #90
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Ok Steve, one last penis joke

http://viral.lycos.co.uk/games/condomgame.html
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