Proposed Winnipesaukee Speed Limit
12-10-2002, 02:29 PM
#22
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Troutly...
You are pretty good with most of your arguments. I am sure MP also had the help of the State Police Reconstruction Team... The damage to both boats was minimal, neither sank, or was damaged beyond repair. I am sure whatever calculations they used to come up with these figures is in the ballpark.
If I had to approach the problem, I agree the answer is in all of the angles. This was not a high speed accident, nor was the man killed from a high speed impact, he was killed because a larger, heavy boat crushed him to death as it rode over the stern of a smaller, slower moving boat. I am not goin to debate what formulas the MP/SP actually used, because, I am not privy to them, and did not double check their math. I am sure the defense is going to try to shoot all kinds of holes in the case. Of course, he hired Pam Smart's old lawyer and look where she is...
As for the radar, sorry bud, you may use it all day long, but I DEVELOP it... it isn't acurate unless you are within a certain envelope within the cone. As the MP cannot specifically state what exact coordinate he is on the water, or what exact bearing the speeder was on relative to the officers bearing (Thats the way it works on the highway, police officer in fixed position, motorist traveling on fixed bearing) you could argue that you were out of the envelope. Of course, if they upgraded to a military radar, not a cheapo handheld that would not be an issue.
I stand by my original statement that a speed limit is not realistically enforceable on the water without expensive upgrades to all of the MP watercraft and training for the officers.
I also did not say you agreed with a speed limit during the day, I was applying your argument to a bigger picture. If you have to run at 25MPH at night, why do you need to run faster than 50 during the day? The answer is, you don't. You do it because you want to, not because you need to. The same goes for any type of craft, be it car, motorcycle, snowmobile or boat.
Your response about reaction times is not exactly correct. Actually reaction time doesn't change much, its visual aquisition of a potential danger that changes. Another point I might make, is why don't speed limits on roads universally drop after dark?
Ponder this.. I am driving 65mph the posted speed limit at night on a straight road, with little traffic. I am violating no laws, and Officer Bob doesn't give me a second glance. If some moron drives 65mph at night, in a dense fog, on a road posted 65mph he isn't breaking any speed limit laws, however, he is driving in a reckless manner.... I am sure Officer Bob would be most interested in having a conversation regarding a citation for reckless operation of a motor vehicle. Technically, he wasn't speeding, he was operating in a manner that reckless given the conditions at that time. Most states have laws that simply state speed must be relative and prudent at all times. Now, apply that to boats, I am driving along, at night minding my own business probably turning 40mph or so, not breaking any laws Officer Bob lets me go, well if he is suspicious, as most NH MP officers are, he will stop you for a "Safety Equipment Check", however, no ticket and I am on my way. While Officer Bob is talking to me, some moron in a Baja.. Sorry Karl.. I had to do it!!
blows by us less than 50' away... Officer Bob then pulls him over for violating the 150' rule, (no speed limit so no speed violation) and reckless operation of motor vehicle... passing too close to Officer Bob & myself at high rate of speed thus endangering the life, limb and property of him Officer Bob & I. The result: heavy fine, possible license suspension, possible court appearance and overall bad night. Could he beat it in court, maybe, but it will still cost him time & lawyers fees.
Headlights are not used on boats because they ruin the night vision of any boat approaching yours, and can actually blind the operator of oncoming boat so that they cannot see your running lights and thus tell what direction you are heading relative to thier position. Headlights make it worse for you by causing glare on the water. If you are caught in NH with your docking lights on in the middle of the lake its a serious offense. I think its a $100 fine.
If you are a careful, responsible prudent boater, then you do not need speed limits. We do not need more laws. We need more MP's, and better enforcement of the laws that already exist.
I won't go into the whole "boat speedo accuracy argument"....
I hope I am not coming across as a cop basher or this discussion as cop bashing. I have several good friends who are SP and I have the utmost respect for anyone who has the passion to that job. I would rather play with lasers...
Woodsy
You are pretty good with most of your arguments. I am sure MP also had the help of the State Police Reconstruction Team... The damage to both boats was minimal, neither sank, or was damaged beyond repair. I am sure whatever calculations they used to come up with these figures is in the ballpark.
If I had to approach the problem, I agree the answer is in all of the angles. This was not a high speed accident, nor was the man killed from a high speed impact, he was killed because a larger, heavy boat crushed him to death as it rode over the stern of a smaller, slower moving boat. I am not goin to debate what formulas the MP/SP actually used, because, I am not privy to them, and did not double check their math. I am sure the defense is going to try to shoot all kinds of holes in the case. Of course, he hired Pam Smart's old lawyer and look where she is...
As for the radar, sorry bud, you may use it all day long, but I DEVELOP it... it isn't acurate unless you are within a certain envelope within the cone. As the MP cannot specifically state what exact coordinate he is on the water, or what exact bearing the speeder was on relative to the officers bearing (Thats the way it works on the highway, police officer in fixed position, motorist traveling on fixed bearing) you could argue that you were out of the envelope. Of course, if they upgraded to a military radar, not a cheapo handheld that would not be an issue.
I stand by my original statement that a speed limit is not realistically enforceable on the water without expensive upgrades to all of the MP watercraft and training for the officers.
I also did not say you agreed with a speed limit during the day, I was applying your argument to a bigger picture. If you have to run at 25MPH at night, why do you need to run faster than 50 during the day? The answer is, you don't. You do it because you want to, not because you need to. The same goes for any type of craft, be it car, motorcycle, snowmobile or boat.
Your response about reaction times is not exactly correct. Actually reaction time doesn't change much, its visual aquisition of a potential danger that changes. Another point I might make, is why don't speed limits on roads universally drop after dark?
Ponder this.. I am driving 65mph the posted speed limit at night on a straight road, with little traffic. I am violating no laws, and Officer Bob doesn't give me a second glance. If some moron drives 65mph at night, in a dense fog, on a road posted 65mph he isn't breaking any speed limit laws, however, he is driving in a reckless manner.... I am sure Officer Bob would be most interested in having a conversation regarding a citation for reckless operation of a motor vehicle. Technically, he wasn't speeding, he was operating in a manner that reckless given the conditions at that time. Most states have laws that simply state speed must be relative and prudent at all times. Now, apply that to boats, I am driving along, at night minding my own business probably turning 40mph or so, not breaking any laws Officer Bob lets me go, well if he is suspicious, as most NH MP officers are, he will stop you for a "Safety Equipment Check", however, no ticket and I am on my way. While Officer Bob is talking to me, some moron in a Baja.. Sorry Karl.. I had to do it!!
blows by us less than 50' away... Officer Bob then pulls him over for violating the 150' rule, (no speed limit so no speed violation) and reckless operation of motor vehicle... passing too close to Officer Bob & myself at high rate of speed thus endangering the life, limb and property of him Officer Bob & I. The result: heavy fine, possible license suspension, possible court appearance and overall bad night. Could he beat it in court, maybe, but it will still cost him time & lawyers fees. Headlights are not used on boats because they ruin the night vision of any boat approaching yours, and can actually blind the operator of oncoming boat so that they cannot see your running lights and thus tell what direction you are heading relative to thier position. Headlights make it worse for you by causing glare on the water. If you are caught in NH with your docking lights on in the middle of the lake its a serious offense. I think its a $100 fine.
If you are a careful, responsible prudent boater, then you do not need speed limits. We do not need more laws. We need more MP's, and better enforcement of the laws that already exist.
I won't go into the whole "boat speedo accuracy argument"....
I hope I am not coming across as a cop basher or this discussion as cop bashing. I have several good friends who are SP and I have the utmost respect for anyone who has the passion to that job. I would rather play with lasers...
Woodsy
Last edited by jollyroger; 12-10-2002 at 02:59 PM.
12-10-2002, 02:59 PM
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While I agree a night time speed limit & no wake zones in "tight" areas make sense...The possibility of new or "over-regulating" laws & daytime speed limits bothers me...I agree that the NH DEPT of SAFETY has a tendency to "pick-on" the wrong people sometimes, but I have found that they are USUALLY pretty fair & they USUALLY have a legitimate reason for the stop...I see more infractions than I can count WHENEVER I go out & have taken to NOT going out on weekends because of it & just plain overcrowding & inconsiderate boaters...To be perfectly honest...I think the boat cops do a pretty good job of "keeping their cool" on busy weekends...It's funny how not too long ago people would actually WAVE to one an other...Now they flick you the bird if you DARE slow down for the markers at Governors Island for safe(150') passage...NH is on the right track with the new "license"/test that they have implemented...It's similiar to the beginners power squadron course...A little knowledge is better than none...Back in 1985 I had just taken delivery of a brand new 22' VELOCITY & because the lake had TOO MUCH water in it the whole lake (for 3 weeks/95 degrees) was a NO WAKE ZONE!!!I DON'T WANT A SPEED LIMIT!!!I have been on the lake (Alton, now Meredith) for 40 years & have a vested interest in the outcome of this............NOW...Tell me about SUMMA HUMMA, I have seen him around...WHAT'S HIS STORY???....BTW BAJADUDE...Jeff at the BEACON is doing a ski/snomobile weekend the 10th of January...check it out at winnilakers.com>>>>>>>
12-10-2002, 03:24 PM
#26
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I agree that something has to be done, and I think that a lot of people up there, that have a vested interest in the lake (read: homeowners) have some good ideas. The accident was just that... an accident, exacerbated by alcohol and poor judgement! Boats are getting bigger and faster up there and the lake is staying the same size that it always was... You can't fit 10lbs. of $hit in a 5lb bag, no matter how hard you try. And I'll be the first to say (with most everyone else here...) that IT IS THE DRIVER, NOT THE BOAT that is responsible for what does and does not happen.
That brings me to Summa Humma... PERFECT example. Charter member of the lucky sperm club! Daddy's company, sold; daddys money yada-yada, big fat A$$, plain and simple! 47' Fountain with trips, on a 27 mile long lake. Not a problem, except maybe at your favorite watering hole trying to find a space on a Saturday. However when you drive and dock like you are the ONLY boat on a 27 mile long lake, yeah... that's a problem. But I'm not gonna spend a lot of time on that subject. Go to the Winni web page, he seems to have a legion of fans there, always looking to see what he's doing and so on... these folks need to get a life! He and people like him are the reason you will see legislation like the speed limit being proposed, totally irresponsible... on a good day.
That brings me to Summa Humma... PERFECT example. Charter member of the lucky sperm club! Daddy's company, sold; daddys money yada-yada, big fat A$$, plain and simple! 47' Fountain with trips, on a 27 mile long lake. Not a problem, except maybe at your favorite watering hole trying to find a space on a Saturday. However when you drive and dock like you are the ONLY boat on a 27 mile long lake, yeah... that's a problem. But I'm not gonna spend a lot of time on that subject. Go to the Winni web page, he seems to have a legion of fans there, always looking to see what he's doing and so on... these folks need to get a life! He and people like him are the reason you will see legislation like the speed limit being proposed, totally irresponsible... on a good day.
12-10-2002, 04:03 PM
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DoTheMath, don't forget he's also got that 53' Carver Voyager "My Otha Summa Humma" (it's for sale, if anyone is interested).
I'm all for getting whatever you want, but his choice in boats does seem a WEE bit excessive for Winni. Problem is, where do you draw the line at excessive? Is the 38 TG I'm drooling over excessive. Probably, but if I can swing it, I'll do it
BTW here's a picture of what DTM is talking about.
I'm all for getting whatever you want, but his choice in boats does seem a WEE bit excessive for Winni. Problem is, where do you draw the line at excessive? Is the 38 TG I'm drooling over excessive. Probably, but if I can swing it, I'll do it
BTW here's a picture of what DTM is talking about.
12-10-2002, 04:06 PM
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Again BajaDude.... It's not the boat, it's the owner.
I'm right there with ya, I'd like to tie a 37' OL to my dock in the near future, but a 28 Pantera is more realistic, and will be enjoyed just as much!
I'm right there with ya, I'd like to tie a 37' OL to my dock in the near future, but a 28 Pantera is more realistic, and will be enjoyed just as much!
Last edited by DoTheMath; 12-10-2002 at 04:08 PM.
12-10-2002, 05:20 PM
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DTM,
Couldn't agree with you more, I've made that point many times. Just wanted to post the pix
Again BajaDude.... It's not the boat, it's the owner.
Last edited by bajadude; 12-10-2002 at 05:30 PM.
12-10-2002, 06:46 PM
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Originally posted by DoTheMath
Again BajaDude.... It's not the boat, it's the owner.
I'm right there with ya, I'd like to tie a 37' OL to my dock in the near future, but a 28 Pantera is more realistic, and will be enjoyed just as much!
Again BajaDude.... It's not the boat, it's the owner.
I'm right there with ya, I'd like to tie a 37' OL to my dock in the near future, but a 28 Pantera is more realistic, and will be enjoyed just as much!
People remember the big boats so you can command a lot of respect or lack of just by your actions and behavior on the lake. Being a courteous and responsible driver are paramount on the overcrowded weekends. When we drive through the Weirs Channel we smile and wave to everyone out of respect and friendliness. Most people wave back, however nevertheless, we still encounter some people that turn their backs and choose to ignore us. Oh well.
Go for the OL!!! Our boat is lonely and needs a playmate!
