Re: Roller lifters input
 

You are correct Mr. Gadgets.

Chris

Re: Roller lifters input
 

What effect does low rpm have on a lifter?

Re: Roller lifters input
 

They are lubricated, cooled by splash and at low rpm's they don't get enough. I think this led to my loosing a lifter after a 2 hour idle up a no wake river. Next time out it failed. What a mess.

Re: Roller lifters input
 

Now is that with a stock GM block or aftermarket one? Doesnt the Dart,Merlin,etc. blocks have better oiling systems?

Re: Roller lifters input
 

That's why Jessel, Crower and maybe others have the pressure pin oiling option. [hppo= high pressure pin oiling] so the lifter and lobe get constant oil, no matter what rpm.

Re: Roller lifters input
 

I've had good luck with the big M.

Re: Roller lifters input
 

I know the Isky's I am running have the pressurized pin oiling as well. I have heard the Isky's are made by Morel? Any truth? BigM block is an awesome piece!

Craig

Re: Roller lifters input
 

Most of the lubrication that the cam and lifters gets is from "spash". At low rpm the lack of splash severly reduces the amount of oil the lobe and lifter gets. Now the lack of oil causes the needle bearings to get hot. Which then cooks the limited oil that is present. Once this oil is cooked excess tolerance builds up in the bearing and axle area. This excess area is now hammered by the excessive spring pressure that roller cam profiles require for high rpm. Lifter fails.

As Mr Gadgets correctly pointed out, high rpm does not kill rollers. Low rpm does.

One thing you can do is go to big lifters such as the .903" or .933" stuff. The larger nose area distributes the load better.

I would not use a solid roller lifter without direct oiling in a boat.

Chris

Re: Roller lifters input
 

How much hp are you planning to run?

Re: Roller lifters input
 

I'll be happy with 1000 but it will be closer to 1300 I hope.Atleast thats the mark we're shooting for.

Re: Roller lifters input
 

Im going to use the Jesel .903's or if that doesnt work out,then I'm gon a use the Crower.903's.

Hopefully I can find some Jesel's for a somewhat good price...LOL

Re: Roller lifters input
 

KE does a spray bar for the lifter valley that sprays on the lobes/lifters. I went to them three yerars ago and lifter failures went away. Even with Big Chief offset lifter. I can get over 100 hours on a set with 210 at the seat and .678 lift/254/262 at .050.

Re: Roller lifters input
 

At what HP level are you guys playing at? I guess I am asking at what point does one need to be concerned with going to high end lifters? Is it more on the lift you are running or RPM or spring pressure. I have 300hrs on the crane lifters in the motors I am freshening now, yes solid set up, however low lift by comparison. I am getting different suggestions as well some say go hydraulic set it and forget it but I really don't mind setting lash every now and then.

If you were >700hp >.650 lift natural asp. is there any need to spend the coin on high end lifters?

Russ

Re: Roller lifters input
 

I have been thinking of doing a spray bar for the lifters and rockers as well.Good to see some input here about this.

Re: Roller lifters input
 

I believe they have the HPPO option too.

Re: Roller lifters input
 

I have talked to a couple of pro mod guys running the Roller X's with good luck. Hope you have the same results.

Re: Roller lifters input
 

Do you have to buy them direct or from where?Any idea what the price is and do they have a .903 lifter also?

Re: Roller lifters input
 

Try Schubeckracing.com
Yes they have .903
I personally have never used them, but they have a great design and are lightweight.

Re: Roller lifters input
 

Look to be about $1000.oo or so.Not a bad design.I need to find out more about these.See if anybody in here is using them or what kind of durability they have shown.

Re: Roller lifters input
 

Johhny, I also went to valve spring sprayers and it did a nice job in extending the life of my Jesel rockers. I spoke with a co that did some testing with the Schubeck's a couple years ago and all was fine providing you didn't let the spring pressure get to low allowing lifter float as apparently the coating on the face of the lifter can chip and all heck breaks loose....so i was told. In drag race where they stay on top of spring pressures they do a very good job....so they said.

Re: Roller lifters input
 

Russer1,
Around here several of us have used the Isky lifters, the other guys get about 250 hrs before they have them rebuilt. Some say rebuilding is not good, but Isky does it. One friend had his Isky's rebuilt and Isky added the oiling hole to make them the latest/greatest. He had one fail after 12 hrs. This was after getting 250hrs consistently thru the years. He has a big cam big spring psi.. etc. close to .700" and 260lbs on the seat.
I would run the same Isky's. Old style and they would fail at 40hrs.. very tiriing to chase that dream.

Johnny DCB
I went to Schubeck .90s flat tappets and had cam problems.. so now I have the the Roller X's .903 and installing them now. We'll see if this is the answer.. Thats what the pics are of earlier in this thread.. Give Joe a call he is a grreat guy!

Nobody..
That is encouraging to hear some are running them and have had success.. and I hope I have the same.. my cam is .685" lift and 260lbs on he seat.. Time will tell.. I need to get back to it..

Later all!

Re: Roller lifters input
 

Im very curious to see the results.I still have some time before I need to order the lifters and such.Would be nice to hear some more feedback on those Roller X's!

Re: Roller lifters input
 

Don't forget to address pushrod deflection. There is a great amount of HP the is lost due to this. At max lift on some profiles there is as much as .100" in deflection. Once the lifter peaks on the profile the pushrod "rebounds" and this can cause the lifter to crash into the flank of the closing side. This can cause a harmonic in the valvetrain and can lead to catastrophic failure.

Chris

Re: Roller lifters input
 

Just another thing to worry about! LOL..Why does this stuff have to be so frustarting..

Re: Roller lifters input
 

cstraub..
and what might be the answer for that problem.. Fatter push rods.. mine are around 11" long.. and I know they flex.. but I have clearance issues..
What do you do about the deflection problem?

Re: Roller lifters input
 

I am fortunate to work for who I do and because of that I get a wealth of feedback, both good and bad, back from what is the creme of de creme of engine builders; a few of which frequent this board.

I added the deflection part so that for those that think a high dollar lifter is going to be all you need for a bulletproof valvetrain are not disappointedn't get blamed in the future if a failure happens. As I know Laz and a few others will agree with me, there is no such thing as a bulletproof valvetrain but matched components are key to longevity.

Pushrod weight was "marketing hype" a few years ago, less is better. I used it also. But now with Spintron testing it has been proven the few grams of weight saved on the valvetrain with light pushrods is not worth the 20 to 40HP that you are loosing due to deflection. None the less the extra stress that the valvetrain is going through.

The "boys" in NC run 7/16" to 9/16" stuff. Some is single taper some is dual taper. For most of you here running with blowers and NA engines a 7/16" single taper would suffice with the more severe stuff using the 1/2" diameter stuff.

Mr. G, at 11" and probly with 3/8" stuff, yes you have deflection no doubt. You have clearance issues, I understand, but let me ask you this. Is it worth possible engine failure due that could have been avoided with some clearance grinding and an upper engine disassembly? At 11" you need at least some 7/16" single taper stuff.

Don't get caught up it the lightweight game. Racing you can push the enevelope, for most of you this isn't the case. You need parts designed for durability. For a fact, one of the top Funny Car teams has some of the heaviest lifters in their car. The bodies have been in there for 3 YEARS!!! Just the axles and rollers assemblies have been changed.

Additional oil. Hell yes. Spray bar systems in the valve covers, in the lifter valley, and built into the oil pan are all good ideas and good insurance.

Hope I have helped.

Chris

Re: Roller lifters input
 

Chris sometimes I tend to stay quiet because when people say too much others think you are a smart ass know it all, but I can tell you that anything I build solid roller with all the good stuff, Manton makes my push rods and I don't care how thick or heavy they are, indeed you're right about deflection another thing about spring press, guys will tell you to try to run just enough I always run the most press I can ,believe it or not this contributes to longevity in the valve components positive valve action leaves nothing to chance, for the record you want a bad ass valvetrane from the bottom to the top .903 jesel lifters Manton's pushrods Jesel shaft mount Delwest retainers valve locks Isky tool room delwest valves and bring the heat because you will not have any issues if the geometry is set up right .

Re: Roller lifters input
 

Laz,
Terry's stuff is top notch I agree. It's hard to explain the value of a $20 pushrod to someone when they are out there for $100 a set. People think you are ripping them off when in fact you are looking out for them.

Thanks for adding your recipe at the end there. It just goes to say, pay me now or pay me later.

Chris

Re: Roller lifters input
 

1300 will put you in the upper 130s, are you running full hydraulic stearing?

Re: Roller lifters input
 

Laz,and or, Chris, what's your opinion of the Crower, 68806 and 68848 valve springs?

Re: Roller lifters input
 

I have the dual ram assist right now but full hydraulic is going in before I even hit the water to test the new motor.

Im looking for a good price on hydraulic helms,(Char lynn's)to go with my WPM rams that i already have.

Re: Roller lifters input
 

This a combo that I have already thought about.But not the Delwest valves.

Re: Roller lifters input
 

I bought mine at CP Performance, somewhere around 1200 for the kit. What year is your boat? where do you run it?

Re: Roller lifters input
 

2000 Mach26 clsoed bow,mainly Parker strip or Havasu.

I just talked to the guys over at WPM and there gonna hook me up with some parts to get it switched over.

New motor,all new guages,and full hydro steering...not sure how Im gonna act after all this happens.Might have to take a week off and hit Havasu.!

Re: Roller lifters input
 

Mine's a 2002, they're great boats, I think you'll be happy with the WPM. what kind of blower are you going to run?

Re: Roller lifters input
 

Twin turbo intercooled EFI system.

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GPM,

Tell me what youve done to your boat?Power and drive wise?

Re: Roller lifters input
 

Procharged, Big duke 598 EFI, still waiting on the new Max Machine drive. XRs aren't lasting to long.

Re: Roller lifters input
 

You want to run any spring that is made from Super Clean Chrome Silicon. I am not familiar with those Crower numbers, I have been out of valvetrain development for a couple of years now, but if you go with any spring made from that material you are getting a high quality long lasting spring. Two things you may want to consider as add on extras with valve springs, electro polishing; removes the "high spots" on the springs and in turn the spring runs cooler. Meta-Laxing. This is vibrational stress relief and does nothing that you can see but will greatly increase spring life.

Chris

Re: Roller lifters input
 

Crower has had the 68806 and the 68848 for 2 years or so, I believe it is their version of the Tool Room spring. They are the only ones Ive had good luck with. Are those add ons, something Crower would do, or is it an aftermarket process?