Procharger experts needed
 

I have a recently installed M-1 that is surging. The fuel pressure @ idle ranges from 30-34# and the engine is rough. I re-built the regulator with ATI's kit and nothing has changed. I did notice that the needle ( big sucker ) had a ring. Should this regulator vary this much as it does? I have talked to ATI and most who answer the phone are not very informed or experienced. Any sources out there on how precise this regulator should regulate??

Re: Procharger experts needed
 

Baronbob,
Contact Articfriends (Smitty) here on OSO. He has conducted some very interesting R&D with Procharger fuel system applications.
Bob

Re: Procharger experts needed
 

Need some more info.
Surge just at idle or at other RPM's?
Is setup on carb motor or EFI? I am assuming with 34lbs of fuel pressure you have efi. If carb you have way too much pressure.
Did problem start as soon as you installed kit or worked for while & then problem started?
Where do you have boost reference line going to from the regulator?

Re: Procharger experts needed
 

The red regulator procharger sold me with my m-3 kit was junk and could never hold the same fuel pressure twice,you would set it at 35psi,put boat into boost (where the regulator would get boost referenced to say 50 psi) then return to off boost and it would go to 31 psi or 38 psi,boat would never run right consistantly. Procharger sent me a new one,was no different,i took it all apart,polished and cleaned it,still did same thing. It would also stay at 35 psi when it was supossed to be boost referenced and lean out about every 10 times of going into boost. The first season i ended up lengthening the return rubber hose and when you hit the gas and it stauyed at base presure i would open engine hatch and wife would pinch off return hose which would cycle the regulator to max pump output and work another 10-20 times under boost. I researched this the second year and a VERY helpful company owner at bell industrys/cartech in texas told me how to fix it,he sold me a second regulator to piggyback on first regulator so one could hold base pressure and second one could override it under boost. I ended up changing primary regulator to a Aeromotive from summit and now it works beautiful holding base/idle fuel pressure. When Tyler Crockett re- did my EFI map (after local guy already sent it out and made it run WORSE) he was also having same problem on procharged apps.I told him how to solve it with the bell regulator and he ended up having bell custom make him some regulators which he now stocks(the original regulator i bought from bell had 1/8" pipe threads for 302 mustangs and i had to rethread it to 1/4 pipe thread) the ones Tyler has made come w/1/4 inch pipe. I about fell over when Tyler was asked this question in Hot Boat and he told a guy that after careful research HE had found this solution but either way this is the fix,if you call him he has both regulators you need in stock,tell him Smitty told you to call him 1-810-324-2720,Smitty

Re: Procharger experts needed
 

The surging might also be from having voltage set wrong on your TPS/IAC,there has been a good post this winter on how to set it,when Crockett dyno's a blown EFI the first thiung he does it set the idle voltage,Smitty

Re: Procharger experts needed
 

Can you describe or draw out or picture the double regulator set-up.

Re: Procharger experts needed
 

Thanks for all the response to everyone. The back ground someone asked for is as follows: The engine is a Merc 7.4 MPI the system is a used M-1 with the red regulator (I think made by ATI). Ati can not come up with a part # for the regulator. They did sell me the correct re-build kit (diaphragm, 3 O rings and a spring). The problem did exist before the re-build. I put the regulator back together the same way with the large round plate on the top of the diaphragm and found that I did not have enough travel in the adjustment and then re-located the round plate to the bottom of the diaphragm resulting in pushing the needle further down with a given spring pressure. the needle does have a wear mark and I have asked ATI if I can purchase a new needle and seat. They do not know if they are sold separately, they don,t know the part # of the regulator or the needle/seat. They will not let me talk to the tech on the flow bench to see where the round plate goes. Anybody know?? Can or should I lap in the needle/seat with valve lapping compound? Or should I just Polish it on my lathe? How do you set the idle voltage referenced in one of these responses?

Re: Procharger experts needed
 

Bob,here is a picture of the JUNK regulator procharger sold me with my original kit. If you didn't understand my first post i'll re-iterate,the original regulator never worked correctly-it would stick and not boost reference occasionally,after boost referencing it wouldn't always return to base fuel pressure,for example it was set at 35psi,you'd shut it off and re-start it and it would stick at 31 or 32,the next time it would go to 37 or 35 or 31!I constantly had to re-adjust it,they sent me a second one,it was no better,i took it apart and polished everything,it was no better. Converting to 2 seperate regulators helped,i used the junk procharger one to set idle presure,used the cartech one to override it by routing return pressure from junk one thru it but it would still stick. Finally i threw it in my JUNK pile,bought the aeromotive one but still use the cartech/bell industrys to boost fuel,works flawlesly. Don't waste too much time or your frustration level with the regulator,just replace it,Tyler Crockett had same exact problems with same regulators on procharger set-ups so its a common problem,Smitty

Re: Procharger experts needed
 

Here is a pic of the one i been using that is problem free.The aeromotive is set at base pressure,say 35psi,the fuel return line that leaves it would normally go back to tank or suction side of the pump,instead it goes to the inlet of a more precise,tunable regulator,when the motor goes into boost the second regulator closes down overiding the first regulator,because your not trying to make 1 regulator hold Idle/base pressure AND raise fuel pressure,its not as susceptible to sticking and holds presure real good. The second thing is the Cartech/Bell industrys regulator is a rising rate regulator,you can adjust how much it boost references from 1psi per psi of bost to 7 or 8 psi per lb of boost,Smitty

Re: Procharger experts needed
 

MY MOTOR BUILDER IS JUST FINISHING UP MY NEW PROCHARGER MOTORS AND NOW I'M A LITTLE CONCERNED ABOUT THIS REGULATOR PROBLEM THAT YOUR TALKING ABOUT. CAN SOME ONE E-MAIL ME THSES PICTURES YOUR TALKING ABOUT. [email protected]

Re: Procharger experts needed
 

Bob,how old is your regulator/set-up? I had all these problems in 2000/2001 and would figure they would have it straightened out by now(that they couldn't have stuck w/a problematic ,crappy design 4 years later) Smitty

Re: Procharger experts needed
 

Smitty -

What are the part numbers and approximate $$$ ?

Can you post a picture of the actual set up on the engine?

Thank you

Re: Procharger experts needed
 

I'll have a pic of it on motor by sunday night as i am re-installing motor in boat this weekend. Both regulators were about 175$ combined plus what ever fuel line plumbing/fittings you need. When mine was all rubber the fittings didn't amount to anything but an hose and adapters,well,you know how that stuff is,Smitty
Anyone trying to solve same problem pm me with a phone number and I'll call you and explain it if you still don'yt understand.

Re: Procharger experts needed
 

Orginal prorcharger regulator I had was for carbs, it worked perfect. Problem must be with the procharger efi regulator. When I went EFI I bought a aeromotive regulator & have had no problems with fuel pressure.

Re: Procharger experts needed
 

Your exactly right,every procharger owner ive ever met with EFI has had problems w/their regulator,never heard of a problem w/carb regulator,Smitty

Re: Procharger experts needed
 

Smitty -

Who makes the other regulator? Hope you get a chance to post pictures. I think this is part of my problem!!!

Thanks

Re: Procharger experts needed
 

You might want to look at the Weldon, pumps, and regulators, you would only need one of each.

Re: Procharger experts needed
 

Bell industrys/cartech makes the other regulator but they make it with 1/8 in npt threads,after telling tyler crockett how it worked he started setting up all his procharger motors with them as the boost reference regulator. He stocks them with 1/4 in pipe threads (they custom make them for him). You can reach him at 810-324-2720,it should be under a 100$ and you won't have to disasemble it and rethread it like I did mine(plus he takes visa and mc :D )Smitty
If you have any other questions about it pm me with a phone# and I'll call you one wk night after 9pm.I'll post a pic of it on boat this week,I just came in from putting motor in today.

Re: Procharger experts needed
 

Gary,how much output does a Weldon pump have,I still need a bigger fuel pump.Originally i had the pump procharger gives you but it wasn't big enough so i put on a Essex pump,it was fine but this time on Dyno it wouldn't keep up either so I need to run 2 pumps or find a even bigger one.I'd like to order one this week,My tailpipes should be here by fri and I might actually have boat running,Smitty

Re: Procharger experts needed
 

Smitty, they have several pumps available, I think you would want the 2025 it puts out about 950lbs per hour. You're only seeing 950hp but the blower is probably eating another 250. MuscleMotors.com had the best prices a while ago. Use the Weldon regulator, it's about $125 and it's all you will need. The smaller regulators can't bypass the fuel and the pressure jumps around. You can check out the flow charts at weldonracing.com.

Re: Procharger experts needed
 

I got an aremotive eliminator fuel pump. Still red in color, same size just more volume than the AE1000. In second year with this & no problems yet.

Re: Procharger experts needed
 

Ok, I have been working with procharger on my problem also. Same red regulator as shown above. I have twins, one motor works great, 30 lbs idle 55 wot, the other motor is 30 lbs idle and 50 lbs wot, even if I set it at 40 lbs idle it is still 50 lbs wot. I agree they are not the same, sometimes they are 38 lbs at an idle other times 30, however in my case it is alway on the high side which is ok. I also see a fluctuation on my "bad" motor by 4-5 lbs about every 15 seconds when at an idle on a mechanicle gauge, it will bounce from 35 to 30 and right back to 35. I was starting to think I have a bad pump until reading this post. Now I wonder about the regulator. I may swap mine between motors and see what happens. Maybe I have a bad one also. I have had great help from PC so far, if it all who you talk to, I think there is only one support guy that is good on the marine side.

You may also have a stock regulator problem if you have the cool fuel system, PC has a kit to eliminate the stock regulator from the circuit.

Anyone know why the fuel pressure would bounce 4-5 lbs in a second at idle? Is this a fuel pump problem or a regulator issue?

Re: Procharger experts needed
 

tssteph, for you to never get over 50psi I am going to say fuel pump or it could be just filters.

Re: Procharger experts needed
 

I was wondering if the regulator was not working correctly it would never hold back more fuel.
My past experience with cars is either an electric pumps works or doesn't.
I will swap regulators from one motor to the other and see if the problem follows. Since the pressure is eractic at an idle I can check oh the hose.

Re: Procharger experts needed
 

One way to is to clamp off the return line & then see what the max pressure that the pump will build

Re: Procharger experts needed
 

Gpm,i looked at the weldon pump,it looks impressive. How well does their regulator boost reference? This time on dyno Crockett set up motor with 40 psi base pressure and we boost reference the presure up to about 70-75 psi,some regulators only raise pressure 1 psi for every 1lb boost but i need one that is adjustable for about 3.5psi-4psi per lb boost,Thanks for any info,Smitty

Re: Procharger experts needed
 

How much pressure are you running for base pressure,how much under boost,how big of injectors and what kinda hp are you making,thanks,Smitty

Re: Procharger experts needed
 

The regulator is 1 to 1, you should be running at least 43.5lbs at idle, that's where the injectors are rated. Why are you running 75lbs at top end, are your injectors to small?

Re: Procharger experts needed
 

GPM, I was wondering same question about why 70 psi, but if I remember correctly with the intake he is using there is a problem in putting in bigger injectors.

As to what I have, 96lbs injectors, aprox +/- 1000 hp (never dynoed) With the areomotive regulator when it is boost refrenced the presssure goes up & down with vacuum or pressure so I set at 43lbs with engine off. Once started pressure goes down below 43, as boost come on it goes up 1 for 1, so at 10 lbs of boost running 53 lbs of pressure. If you are going to run 70 lbs of pressure you are going to need one hell of a pump to give you enough fuel for 900+ HP. If you look at areomotives web site they say the eliminator pump is good for 1600 HP - Naturally Aspirated & 1100 HP - forced air induction all because the pump will not pump as much fuel at the higher pressures.

Re: Procharger experts needed
 

Gpm,i'm running 63lb injectors ,they are largest ones that are high impedance and can be fired by mefi-3. I could have used bigger injectors if i spent another 2000$ plus dollars on a fast stand alone computer or similar. So I am still stuck with boost referencing the fuel regulator under boost which brings up the problem at hand,if i buy too big of a fuel pump my regulators i'm using won't return enough fuel and will cause my off boost fuel presure to go too high. On dyno we used a magnaflow carburated style fuel pump (500gph) to feed my essex pump and had 70-75psi under boost. The regulators that will handle big excess flow from big output pumps usually have a 1-1 boost reference which won't work with my EFI program. I will probably have to install a booster pump on a msd window switch to come in at 4000 rpms when i really start using the most fuel. Right now I'm researching what my options are while i wait for my tailpipes to show up for boat.Smitty

Re: Procharger experts needed
 

I guess you could run the 2025 from a relay and a boost switch, and if you ever upgrade the ECU you could add the regulator and be done. I tried several other brand pumps and regulators, none work as well as the Weldon. Why not turn the fuel pressure up and back the pulse width down.

Re: Procharger experts needed
 

I clamped off my return line yesterday and ran it WOT for a short burst. The pump could not keep up with the pressure at WOT. Fuel pressure at an idle is real eratic also.

Looks like I need a new pump for the port motor. It also seems that Mercruiser has a newer version of the high pressure pump and cooler for the cool fuel system and you can't just replace the pump any more. I am having a hard time finding one in stock anywere.....

Re: Procharger experts needed
 

Its best just to toss the cool fuel setup and stock pump if your running it,put a fuel cooler on that uses regular fittings and a real pump. My stock fuel cool adapters and crap were a cobbled nightmare.If your using a stock pump( i thought procharger gives you a aeromotive pump with all their set-ups) i have one off a 2000 mpi you can have if your intent on running one,Smitty

Re: Procharger experts needed
 

For the 350 mpi kit the cool fuel setup is supposed to be fine, it is for one of my motors and not the other.

I would love to have yours if I can. What motor was it and I will check and see if the part numbers are the same.

Thanks
Brian

Re: Procharger experts needed
 

The fuel pump was a stock one off a 2000 502 mpi,i doubt its the same as a 350 but find out and let me know,Smitty

Re: Procharger experts needed
 

Looks like they are the same part number. I will pay you for it.... Let me know what you need. I am worried that the local marina won't get me a new one in stock by the weekend.

I also found some 98-99 service bulletins named:
Electric Fuel Pump Check Valve Sticking
EFI / MPI Fuel Pumps With Low Pressure

Does anyone have access to look these up? Or know where I can look them up?

Brian

Re: Procharger experts needed
 

I found the service bulletin information already, basically replace the pump is the answer.

Re: Procharger experts needed
 

Fuel Pump Questions Call Kinsler. ( 248)362-1145 They can make custom Weldon Pumps by mixing electric motors and pump housings. Not all Weldon pumps are for constant duty.(ie. drag racing)They flow test the pumps before they go out. My Weldon 8850-10E flows 20 psi--746lbs @ 12.2 amps
50 psi--699lbs @ 14.4
70 psi--677lbs @ 15.6
100psi-- 628lbs @ 18.1
120psi-- 604lbs @ 19.8
I run 72 inj start @ 60psi base and max out with 1:1 ratio @ 76psi. The pump is fine for over 1000hp @ 100psi.
Big pumps draw a lot of power. Check your wiring, make sure it is over sized and your charging system/battery is up for the drain.
Be carefull your injectors are not made for high pressure and may static flow on you.

Re: Procharger experts needed
 

Give me a ring on phone w/address and I'll drop it in ups tommorrow,you can just pay the s/h,pump was in boat 1 month from new before i converted to procharger,Smitty

Re: Procharger experts needed
 

Smitty,
You have a paypal account? I will shoot you some cash for shipping and an address.

Brian