Solid roller lifter on a hydraulic roller cam
05-05-2007, 09:15 AM
#11
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Agreed, Isky makes some nice stuff.
IMHO, its just the Comp stuff. Its gotten to the point with Comp that they are mass producing thier crap and quality control has gone down hill. Just like anything, you get what you pay for, and when it comes to valve train, I would never cheap out.
IMHO, its just the Comp stuff. Its gotten to the point with Comp that they are mass producing thier crap and quality control has gone down hill. Just like anything, you get what you pay for, and when it comes to valve train, I would never cheap out.
05-05-2007, 08:53 PM
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I've found numerous people runnin' solid lifters on hydraulic rollers no problem so I will be changing to solid.....see below, very interesting and informative....
I do not ever use hyd rlrs in a boat application. Once the oil heats up, and it will, the bleed down is excessive., and power loss occurs. See what your top speed is with cool oil, then try it with normal heated oil, every boat we have tried this on shows a top speed loss. I was in on the Crane Hyd rlr thing from near the beginning back in 1985. They work ok on a small block because valvetrain weight is much less, and in a car the oil won't get nearly as hot because you can only "stand on it" for a short time, the high rpm bleed down doesn't have very long to occur either. Synthetic oil is leakier(thinner) don't use it, it makes the problem worse. There are bandaids: rev kit(allows lighter seat pressure by adding a spring to push down on the lifter),titanium retainers, locks and valves(pricey but it allows lighter spring pressure),replace your lifters twice a season(lifters are machined and lapped to smaller than ten thousandths of an inch, they will wear quickly to bigger tolerances at lake boat rpms and bleed down quicker),use a slower ramp rate cam(so now it is no better than a regular hydraulic cam HP wise). Aluminum heads make the problems worse, as they expand and contract about twice as much as iron heads, and this wears out the lifters quicker. Dyno tests show all kinds of wonderful hp gains that you will not have in the real world, they use new lifters, fresh oil, TEMPRATURE controlled oil, fully filled lifters and light springs, for every test. A dyno test sweep at 300 rpm/second takes only about ten seconds to run, from 3000 to 6000 rpm. The lifter hasn't time to bleed down. We tried all of the bandaids with the Crane thing and after 4+ months of "real world testing", I put a set of solid rollers on it and gained about 70 hp. When Crane wanted me to test again in the early 90s, similar results. Comp wanted us to try their new system about 3 years ago on my 565,14-71 blown Daytona, I treid it again and although it was better, I was still dissatisfied. Top speed dropped off by 7 mph with the oil warm.I have a 12 qt.pan,and a water to oil, oil cooler(BIG). As a fair test, I did what I allways do, put solid rollers on it, use the correct length pushrod, lash them at .005" and see what happens. As usual, the hyd rlr comes out for replacement with a solid roller. Comp replaced all of my hyd rlr parts with solid rlr stuff, for free, and I go back to adjusting the rollers once a year. I have had a lot of people in my shop argue with me about this, but until you have actually tried this test, you don't have a valid opinion. We have replaced jetboat hyd rlr cams with solid cams,at the lake, and put solid rollers on hyd rlr cams at the lake. These are my experiences. Other REAL WORLD ISSUES are: a dyno sits still, a boat is tossed around by the waves and acceleration, the oil is thrown up on the crank and tossed off thousands of times per minute, this seriously aerates the oil. Oil is not compressable, air is. IT IS THE AIR IN THE OIL THAT LETS THE LIFTER BLEED DOWN QUICKER,(that makes the EFFECTIVE oil viscosity less), AND ALLOWS THE PLUNGER DEPTH TO BE LOWER, this shortens the effective duration and actual lift. I have done this test many times, actually whenever somebody releases somthing that is the new "silver bullet". I try everything that I can, we do not experiment on our customers boats, we do not sell anything that we haven't tried or don't believe in. This is my business, my reputation, and how I DO business. Others experiences may vary. Let the discussion begin... TIMINATOR
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I do not ever use hyd rlrs in a boat application. Once the oil heats up, and it will, the bleed down is excessive., and power loss occurs. See what your top speed is with cool oil, then try it with normal heated oil, every boat we have tried this on shows a top speed loss. I was in on the Crane Hyd rlr thing from near the beginning back in 1985. They work ok on a small block because valvetrain weight is much less, and in a car the oil won't get nearly as hot because you can only "stand on it" for a short time, the high rpm bleed down doesn't have very long to occur either. Synthetic oil is leakier(thinner) don't use it, it makes the problem worse. There are bandaids: rev kit(allows lighter seat pressure by adding a spring to push down on the lifter),titanium retainers, locks and valves(pricey but it allows lighter spring pressure),replace your lifters twice a season(lifters are machined and lapped to smaller than ten thousandths of an inch, they will wear quickly to bigger tolerances at lake boat rpms and bleed down quicker),use a slower ramp rate cam(so now it is no better than a regular hydraulic cam HP wise). Aluminum heads make the problems worse, as they expand and contract about twice as much as iron heads, and this wears out the lifters quicker. Dyno tests show all kinds of wonderful hp gains that you will not have in the real world, they use new lifters, fresh oil, TEMPRATURE controlled oil, fully filled lifters and light springs, for every test. A dyno test sweep at 300 rpm/second takes only about ten seconds to run, from 3000 to 6000 rpm. The lifter hasn't time to bleed down. We tried all of the bandaids with the Crane thing and after 4+ months of "real world testing", I put a set of solid rollers on it and gained about 70 hp. When Crane wanted me to test again in the early 90s, similar results. Comp wanted us to try their new system about 3 years ago on my 565,14-71 blown Daytona, I treid it again and although it was better, I was still dissatisfied. Top speed dropped off by 7 mph with the oil warm.I have a 12 qt.pan,and a water to oil, oil cooler(BIG). As a fair test, I did what I allways do, put solid rollers on it, use the correct length pushrod, lash them at .005" and see what happens. As usual, the hyd rlr comes out for replacement with a solid roller. Comp replaced all of my hyd rlr parts with solid rlr stuff, for free, and I go back to adjusting the rollers once a year. I have had a lot of people in my shop argue with me about this, but until you have actually tried this test, you don't have a valid opinion. We have replaced jetboat hyd rlr cams with solid cams,at the lake, and put solid rollers on hyd rlr cams at the lake. These are my experiences. Other REAL WORLD ISSUES are: a dyno sits still, a boat is tossed around by the waves and acceleration, the oil is thrown up on the crank and tossed off thousands of times per minute, this seriously aerates the oil. Oil is not compressable, air is. IT IS THE AIR IN THE OIL THAT LETS THE LIFTER BLEED DOWN QUICKER,(that makes the EFFECTIVE oil viscosity less), AND ALLOWS THE PLUNGER DEPTH TO BE LOWER, this shortens the effective duration and actual lift. I have done this test many times, actually whenever somebody releases somthing that is the new "silver bullet". I try everything that I can, we do not experiment on our customers boats, we do not sell anything that we haven't tried or don't believe in. This is my business, my reputation, and how I DO business. Others experiences may vary. Let the discussion begin... TIMINATOR
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TUFENUF MARINE PERFORMANCE 623-877-8553
05-06-2007, 12:18 AM
#13
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I've found numerous people runnin' solid lifters on hydraulic rollers no problem so I will be changing to solid.....see below, very interesting and informative....
I do not ever use hyd rlrs in a boat application. Once the oil heats up, and it will, the bleed down is excessive., and power loss occurs. See what your top speed is with cool oil, then try it with normal heated oil, every boat we have tried this on shows a top speed loss. I was in on the Crane Hyd rlr thing from near the beginning back in 1985. They work ok on a small block because valvetrain weight is much less, and in a car the oil won't get nearly as hot because you can only "stand on it" for a short time, the high rpm bleed down doesn't have very long to occur either. Synthetic oil is leakier(thinner) don't use it, it makes the problem worse. There are bandaids: rev kit(allows lighter seat pressure by adding a spring to push down on the lifter),titanium retainers, locks and valves(pricey but it allows lighter spring pressure),replace your lifters twice a season(lifters are machined and lapped to smaller than ten thousandths of an inch, they will wear quickly to bigger tolerances at lake boat rpms and bleed down quicker),use a slower ramp rate cam(so now it is no better than a regular hydraulic cam HP wise). Aluminum heads make the problems worse, as they expand and contract about twice as much as iron heads, and this wears out the lifters quicker. Dyno tests show all kinds of wonderful hp gains that you will not have in the real world, they use new lifters, fresh oil, TEMPRATURE controlled oil, fully filled lifters and light springs, for every test. A dyno test sweep at 300 rpm/second takes only about ten seconds to run, from 3000 to 6000 rpm. The lifter hasn't time to bleed down. We tried all of the bandaids with the Crane thing and after 4+ months of "real world testing", I put a set of solid rollers on it and gained about 70 hp. When Crane wanted me to test again in the early 90s, similar results. Comp wanted us to try their new system about 3 years ago on my 565,14-71 blown Daytona, I treid it again and although it was better, I was still dissatisfied. Top speed dropped off by 7 mph with the oil warm.I have a 12 qt.pan,and a water to oil, oil cooler(BIG). As a fair test, I did what I allways do, put solid rollers on it, use the correct length pushrod, lash them at .005" and see what happens. As usual, the hyd rlr comes out for replacement with a solid roller. Comp replaced all of my hyd rlr parts with solid rlr stuff, for free, and I go back to adjusting the rollers once a year. I have had a lot of people in my shop argue with me about this, but until you have actually tried this test, you don't have a valid opinion. We have replaced jetboat hyd rlr cams with solid cams,at the lake, and put solid rollers on hyd rlr cams at the lake. These are my experiences. Other REAL WORLD ISSUES are: a dyno sits still, a boat is tossed around by the waves and acceleration, the oil is thrown up on the crank and tossed off thousands of times per minute, this seriously aerates the oil. Oil is not compressable, air is. IT IS THE AIR IN THE OIL THAT LETS THE LIFTER BLEED DOWN QUICKER,(that makes the EFFECTIVE oil viscosity less), AND ALLOWS THE PLUNGER DEPTH TO BE LOWER, this shortens the effective duration and actual lift. I have done this test many times, actually whenever somebody releases somthing that is the new "silver bullet". I try everything that I can, we do not experiment on our customers boats, we do not sell anything that we haven't tried or don't believe in. This is my business, my reputation, and how I DO business. Others experiences may vary. Let the discussion begin... TIMINATOR
__________________
TUFENUF MARINE PERFORMANCE 623-877-8553
I do not ever use hyd rlrs in a boat application. Once the oil heats up, and it will, the bleed down is excessive., and power loss occurs. See what your top speed is with cool oil, then try it with normal heated oil, every boat we have tried this on shows a top speed loss. I was in on the Crane Hyd rlr thing from near the beginning back in 1985. They work ok on a small block because valvetrain weight is much less, and in a car the oil won't get nearly as hot because you can only "stand on it" for a short time, the high rpm bleed down doesn't have very long to occur either. Synthetic oil is leakier(thinner) don't use it, it makes the problem worse. There are bandaids: rev kit(allows lighter seat pressure by adding a spring to push down on the lifter),titanium retainers, locks and valves(pricey but it allows lighter spring pressure),replace your lifters twice a season(lifters are machined and lapped to smaller than ten thousandths of an inch, they will wear quickly to bigger tolerances at lake boat rpms and bleed down quicker),use a slower ramp rate cam(so now it is no better than a regular hydraulic cam HP wise). Aluminum heads make the problems worse, as they expand and contract about twice as much as iron heads, and this wears out the lifters quicker. Dyno tests show all kinds of wonderful hp gains that you will not have in the real world, they use new lifters, fresh oil, TEMPRATURE controlled oil, fully filled lifters and light springs, for every test. A dyno test sweep at 300 rpm/second takes only about ten seconds to run, from 3000 to 6000 rpm. The lifter hasn't time to bleed down. We tried all of the bandaids with the Crane thing and after 4+ months of "real world testing", I put a set of solid rollers on it and gained about 70 hp. When Crane wanted me to test again in the early 90s, similar results. Comp wanted us to try their new system about 3 years ago on my 565,14-71 blown Daytona, I treid it again and although it was better, I was still dissatisfied. Top speed dropped off by 7 mph with the oil warm.I have a 12 qt.pan,and a water to oil, oil cooler(BIG). As a fair test, I did what I allways do, put solid rollers on it, use the correct length pushrod, lash them at .005" and see what happens. As usual, the hyd rlr comes out for replacement with a solid roller. Comp replaced all of my hyd rlr parts with solid rlr stuff, for free, and I go back to adjusting the rollers once a year. I have had a lot of people in my shop argue with me about this, but until you have actually tried this test, you don't have a valid opinion. We have replaced jetboat hyd rlr cams with solid cams,at the lake, and put solid rollers on hyd rlr cams at the lake. These are my experiences. Other REAL WORLD ISSUES are: a dyno sits still, a boat is tossed around by the waves and acceleration, the oil is thrown up on the crank and tossed off thousands of times per minute, this seriously aerates the oil. Oil is not compressable, air is. IT IS THE AIR IN THE OIL THAT LETS THE LIFTER BLEED DOWN QUICKER,(that makes the EFFECTIVE oil viscosity less), AND ALLOWS THE PLUNGER DEPTH TO BE LOWER, this shortens the effective duration and actual lift. I have done this test many times, actually whenever somebody releases somthing that is the new "silver bullet". I try everything that I can, we do not experiment on our customers boats, we do not sell anything that we haven't tried or don't believe in. This is my business, my reputation, and how I DO business. Others experiences may vary. Let the discussion begin... TIMINATOR
__________________
TUFENUF MARINE PERFORMANCE 623-877-8553
Something I experienced that this phenomenon might have caused-when I dynoed my motor it made 944 hp/962 ft lbs of tq on crocketts dyno on its best pull,cmi headers running dry into his exhaust tubes,we set air fuel ratios between 11.9 to 11.4 (progressively made it richer as boost increased) under boost in the mid to upper rpm ranges. When we retested it on the water with stainless marine 3's and 5' tails HOT the afr's were around 10.4-9.8 and had to have alot of fuel taken out of the fuel tables to get it back to the mid 11's. I always blamed it on hot intake air from the engine compartment and the exhaust having water injected into it BUT was motor actually richening up due to loss of lift and duration from the lifters (morel hyd lifters),now you really got me thinking because my exhaust has 5' tails and is not really that restrictive from what I know. We are talking 15-20% drop in the afr's here, you really got me thinking,Smitty
05-06-2007, 04:37 AM
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I threw mine in the bin about 3 hours ago and dropped in some comp solid rollers. I am convinced it will be a much better deal with solid. I gave up on HYD lifters in my hot rods years ago as well. Dont know why people dont like them. Set them once in the middle of the summer. Its a goodtime to check out the exaust as well. I only one engine to do though. Jas
05-06-2007, 10:43 AM
#15
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Ghittner
I am with you with the aerated oil years ago when I was an apprentice we had many owners who would drive their boats at WOT for as long as possible, we did production racing in OZ, I'm talking mostly sbc and even in-lines (Mercruisers but same with any) lifters would leak down until they got noisy and you start loosing speed, the owners would idle around and the noise would go away.
I had several customers with sump oil temp gauges and they would easily go over 300F at WOT after about 15 minutes but without significantly lowering the pressure, seriously in need of a cooler.
If you pulled the dip stick the oil was severaly foamed.
The problem would go away ( and oil temp would drop)if you lowered the oil level to well below the low mark on the stick proving the it was the oil being foamed up that was causing the problem.
This is a clearly a progressive thing so in between bled down noisy lifters they are bleeding down so you are loosing lift and duration all the time as you say.
One test I would do was to put a long piece 1/4 ( or smaller)re inforced clear plastic hose on a oil gallery and just drop the end back to the dip stick tube and leave it coiled on the floor so you can see the oil becoming aerated ( same trick for testing water quality on high mounted outboards)
Nows whats all that air in the oil doing to your bearings??
Not carrying the heat away thats for sure..
I am with you with the aerated oil years ago when I was an apprentice we had many owners who would drive their boats at WOT for as long as possible, we did production racing in OZ, I'm talking mostly sbc and even in-lines (Mercruisers but same with any) lifters would leak down until they got noisy and you start loosing speed, the owners would idle around and the noise would go away.
I had several customers with sump oil temp gauges and they would easily go over 300F at WOT after about 15 minutes but without significantly lowering the pressure, seriously in need of a cooler.
If you pulled the dip stick the oil was severaly foamed.
The problem would go away ( and oil temp would drop)if you lowered the oil level to well below the low mark on the stick proving the it was the oil being foamed up that was causing the problem.
This is a clearly a progressive thing so in between bled down noisy lifters they are bleeding down so you are loosing lift and duration all the time as you say.
One test I would do was to put a long piece 1/4 ( or smaller)re inforced clear plastic hose on a oil gallery and just drop the end back to the dip stick tube and leave it coiled on the floor so you can see the oil becoming aerated ( same trick for testing water quality on high mounted outboards)
Nows whats all that air in the oil doing to your bearings??
Not carrying the heat away thats for sure..
Last edited by powerabout; 05-06-2007 at 10:58 AM. Reason: spelling mistake
05-06-2007, 11:17 AM
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Go Solid. I did, and I ain't going back to hydraulic.
BUT: make sure you get lifters that pressure-feed oil to the roller pin. You need this since a lot of the Solid Lifters on the market are designed for drag racing (where they don't spend much time in idling or at low RPMs) and they aren't designed to endure continuous low and mid rpms. I use the Crower HIPPO (High Pressure Pin Oiling) in my 540. I'm now trying to get a prop to keep the RPMs off the limiter at 6600 because it absolutely screams once it gets into boost.
As far as the solid lifter/ hydraulic cam compatiblity isssue goes IMHO this is a principle that applies mostly to FLAT tappet cams. It is true that for most solid flat tappet profiles (especially with tight lash settings), you tend to need a softer initial ramp for the solid flat tappet lifters, as they don't have an "oil cushion" like a hydraulic lifter. I'm sure this doesn't hold true for roller cams though, which generally have much more agressive profiles than flat tappet cams. In fact, the most agressive profiles are solid rollers. Eg. How many, Hyd. Roller cams have you seen with .800++ lift.
IMHO: If you have a BBC with large valves, an agressive (say 240+ Intake duration @ 0.050") especially if its supercharged, and you intend to turn around 6000 RPM, you're better off running a solid, because the valvetrain weight and extra stress caused by boost is, in the end, just too much for a hydraulic lifter.
just my 2 cents...
BUT: make sure you get lifters that pressure-feed oil to the roller pin. You need this since a lot of the Solid Lifters on the market are designed for drag racing (where they don't spend much time in idling or at low RPMs) and they aren't designed to endure continuous low and mid rpms. I use the Crower HIPPO (High Pressure Pin Oiling) in my 540. I'm now trying to get a prop to keep the RPMs off the limiter at 6600 because it absolutely screams once it gets into boost.
As far as the solid lifter/ hydraulic cam compatiblity isssue goes IMHO this is a principle that applies mostly to FLAT tappet cams. It is true that for most solid flat tappet profiles (especially with tight lash settings), you tend to need a softer initial ramp for the solid flat tappet lifters, as they don't have an "oil cushion" like a hydraulic lifter. I'm sure this doesn't hold true for roller cams though, which generally have much more agressive profiles than flat tappet cams. In fact, the most agressive profiles are solid rollers. Eg. How many, Hyd. Roller cams have you seen with .800++ lift.
IMHO: If you have a BBC with large valves, an agressive (say 240+ Intake duration @ 0.050") especially if its supercharged, and you intend to turn around 6000 RPM, you're better off running a solid, because the valvetrain weight and extra stress caused by boost is, in the end, just too much for a hydraulic lifter.
just my 2 cents...
05-14-2007, 04:55 PM
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Hey Jim V! Good to hear from you. I'm the guy that you did the AFR 345 heads for that got sent to Bulgaria by mistake. Just FYI, I've got the motor together now and its running like an SOB! It pushed my boat (A/O 2600) to 98mph N/A even though I have a Comp "blower" S/R cam w/ 114 deg. lobe separation.
BTW:I ran it a couple of weekends ago at 121Mph with a stock 32 Bravo 1 with 10psi of boost! (I have pics and details of the run on another thread titled "Optimum Air Fuel Ratio for Supercharged Motors", if you're interested).
Looks like your head work and the solid roller combo is working, so, like I said before in this thread, I'm not going back to a hydraulic roller, especially since everybody else here seems to be of the view that a solid performs better in a BBC marine application.
BTW:I ran it a couple of weekends ago at 121Mph with a stock 32 Bravo 1 with 10psi of boost! (I have pics and details of the run on another thread titled "Optimum Air Fuel Ratio for Supercharged Motors", if you're interested).
Looks like your head work and the solid roller combo is working, so, like I said before in this thread, I'm not going back to a hydraulic roller, especially since everybody else here seems to be of the view that a solid performs better in a BBC marine application.
05-14-2007, 05:13 PM
#19
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We run Cranes hydraulic rollers with high spring pressure in our 565s and they quickly twist to 6500rpms with zero valve float 1150hp each.
With todays components I see no reason to run solids in a 6500 rpm or less rpm marine application.
We run up to 7000 rpms with the same lifters 750 hp pump gas street 540CIs way less tear downs attributed to ultra high spring pressures.
Good luck!
With todays components I see no reason to run solids in a 6500 rpm or less rpm marine application.
We run up to 7000 rpms with the same lifters 750 hp pump gas street 540CIs way less tear downs attributed to ultra high spring pressures.
Good luck!
05-14-2007, 05:36 PM
#20
Hey Jim V! Good to hear from you. I'm the guy that you did the AFR 345 heads for that got sent to Bulgaria by mistake. Just FYI, I've got the motor together now and its running like an SOB! It pushed my boat (A/O 2600) to 98mph N/A even though I have a Comp "blower" S/R cam w/ 114 deg. lobe separation.
BTW:I ran it a couple of weekends ago at 121Mph with a stock 32 Bravo 1 with 10psi of boost! (I have pics and details of the run on another thread titled "Optimum Air Fuel Ratio for Supercharged Motors", if you're interested).
Looks like your head work and the solid roller combo is working, so, like I said before in this thread, I'm not going back to a hydraulic roller, especially since everybody else here seems to be of the view that a solid performs better in a BBC marine application.
BTW:I ran it a couple of weekends ago at 121Mph with a stock 32 Bravo 1 with 10psi of boost! (I have pics and details of the run on another thread titled "Optimum Air Fuel Ratio for Supercharged Motors", if you're interested).
Looks like your head work and the solid roller combo is working, so, like I said before in this thread, I'm not going back to a hydraulic roller, especially since everybody else here seems to be of the view that a solid performs better in a BBC marine application.
