Hydrolocked my motor
#61
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,777
Likes: 12
From: San Diego, California
I was raising the compression question issue because the pistons you are using appear to have more than a +1CC dome?, 005" in the whole and a .020" cut of the head surface and a .041" head gasket will get the compression to about 9.5 to 1 . This engine with an iron head running warm with a fairly moderate ignition lead which may be near it's high at a no-load 1800 rpm engine speed, depending on fuel quality and type could have help create some edge of detonation conditions in that cylinder. Were air fuels ever set up on the engine after the build for jetting and such? What kind of timing was in the engine?
Obviously, there are a lot of possibilities here and I don't think anyone at this point can point to one direct cause or issue. You could have had a exhaust valve seat that was in improperly or with a slight crack after install? The cylinder #7 was oiling a bit too much leading to some deposits that pre-ignited in that cylinder? As others mentioned here you could have had a 5/7 crossfiring condition? Head gasket could have failed between 5 &7? we could go on and on with suppositions here. In any event the physical damage from the valve seat bouncing around in the cylinder did a lot of quick physical damage, but IN TWO SECONDS or so that much edge of piston damage and underside overheating did not occur. That took some time and indicates something else was wrong in this engine maybe long before it broke up.
I know its painful to look back after a loss like this but its obviously really important that you revisit a lot of examination,build and setup issues before you put a lot more good money down and set up the new replacement new engine. Its always kind of scary when you try to put your faith in a new redo when one is not sure what caused the original failure. One thing you can do is make sure that all the parts and new parts are in top flite condition and setup and that you have good specs. and assembly procedures for what you are putting together.
Not sure any of this will help but just trying to help isolate what may have been problems and help you decide where you might want to go from here.
Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar
Obviously, there are a lot of possibilities here and I don't think anyone at this point can point to one direct cause or issue. You could have had a exhaust valve seat that was in improperly or with a slight crack after install? The cylinder #7 was oiling a bit too much leading to some deposits that pre-ignited in that cylinder? As others mentioned here you could have had a 5/7 crossfiring condition? Head gasket could have failed between 5 &7? we could go on and on with suppositions here. In any event the physical damage from the valve seat bouncing around in the cylinder did a lot of quick physical damage, but IN TWO SECONDS or so that much edge of piston damage and underside overheating did not occur. That took some time and indicates something else was wrong in this engine maybe long before it broke up.
I know its painful to look back after a loss like this but its obviously really important that you revisit a lot of examination,build and setup issues before you put a lot more good money down and set up the new replacement new engine. Its always kind of scary when you try to put your faith in a new redo when one is not sure what caused the original failure. One thing you can do is make sure that all the parts and new parts are in top flite condition and setup and that you have good specs. and assembly procedures for what you are putting together.
Not sure any of this will help but just trying to help isolate what may have been problems and help you decide where you might want to go from here.
Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar
Last edited by Raylar; 02-13-2012 at 11:02 AM.
#63
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 156
Likes: 3
From: So Cal
eliminator28,i know you are not wanting to put a ton of money back in this engine,but i highly recommend that you do not attempt to reuse the bad head,you will be money ahead if you replace the heads,if you can swing it,i recomend the edelbrock rpm marine heads,rect port,next option a cheaper cast iorn head,several good brands out there to choose from ,also,on every bbc engine i have ever put on a dyno,cyl 7 always has the hottest egt,s.good luck with the rebuild.
#64
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 712
Likes: 20
From: lake cumberland KY
wow i ve been following this thread as well.
hate to see this happen to a "true do it your selfer."
i jsut had my new motor built and i installe dit myself and htis makes me cringe! lol
somebody said earlier in this post that filling up on land is dangerous for a marine engine....mine is 9.3 to 1 compression 468 with a holley 750 and i run 89 octane and i fill up on land. am i lookin at a similar problem lurking?
im just as curious as everyone else about the actual cause of this catastrophe....
-lean condition in the cylinder due to low octane fuel and high compression? seems like it would have been occuring in more than one cylinder if this was the across the board cause.
-detonation caused by 5 and 7 jumping fire or a cracked head....cracked the valve seat....flooded the cylinder...then came apart?
as Raylar said...the burnt underside of the main piston in question may be the most telling piece of evidence to be seen. this indicates an ongoing problem from the onset....either a cracked head to begin with ....or maybe the 5 and 7 issue. (im not real sure on how the 5 and 7 issue works as far as the "plug wires jumping from one to another" can someone explain this phenomenon and how to check for and prevent this?)
hate to see this happen to a "true do it your selfer."
i jsut had my new motor built and i installe dit myself and htis makes me cringe! lol
somebody said earlier in this post that filling up on land is dangerous for a marine engine....mine is 9.3 to 1 compression 468 with a holley 750 and i run 89 octane and i fill up on land. am i lookin at a similar problem lurking?
im just as curious as everyone else about the actual cause of this catastrophe....
-lean condition in the cylinder due to low octane fuel and high compression? seems like it would have been occuring in more than one cylinder if this was the across the board cause.
-detonation caused by 5 and 7 jumping fire or a cracked head....cracked the valve seat....flooded the cylinder...then came apart?
as Raylar said...the burnt underside of the main piston in question may be the most telling piece of evidence to be seen. this indicates an ongoing problem from the onset....either a cracked head to begin with ....or maybe the 5 and 7 issue. (im not real sure on how the 5 and 7 issue works as far as the "plug wires jumping from one to another" can someone explain this phenomenon and how to check for and prevent this?)
#65
somebody said earlier in this post that filling up on land is dangerous for a marine engine....mine is 9.3 to 1 compression 468 with a holley 750 and i run 89 octane and i fill up on land. am i lookin at a similar problem lurking?
-as Raylar said...the burnt underside of the main piston in question may be the most telling piece of evidence to be seen. this indicates an ongoing problem from the onset....either a cracked head to begin with ....or maybe the 5 and 7 issue. (im not real sure on how the 5 and 7 issue works as far as the "plug wires jumping from one to another" can someone explain this phenomenon and how to check for and prevent this?)
-as Raylar said...the burnt underside of the main piston in question may be the most telling piece of evidence to be seen. this indicates an ongoing problem from the onset....either a cracked head to begin with ....or maybe the 5 and 7 issue. (im not real sure on how the 5 and 7 issue works as far as the "plug wires jumping from one to another" can someone explain this phenomenon and how to check for and prevent this?)
5 fires just before 7 in the firing order. If the wires were failing dielectrically and they were touching each other, the spark from 5 could travel into 7 causing the plug to fire way too soon (90*)before tdc. Your piston would hate that. Looking closely at the piston from 7 I don't detect signs of detonation though, just the heat on the underside...
When you have the head off look at the #7 exhaust valve spring closely. Maybe the spring is broke and was beating the seat to death which caused it to come out.
#66
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 156
Likes: 3
From: So Cal
I was raising the compression question issue because the pistons you are using appear to have more than a +1CC dome? Yes, they had a 1cc dome (SRP 281919), 005" in the whole and a .020" cut of the head surface and a .041" head gasket will get the compression to about 9.5 to 1 . This engine with an iron head running warm with a fairly moderate ignition lead which may be near it's high at a no-load 1800 rpm engine speed, depending on fuel quality and type could have help create some edge of detonation conditions in that cylinder. Were air fuels ever set up on the engine after the build for jetting and such? On the Dyno, with the 800cfm carb it was around 12.5 - 12.8. I ran the boat with that carb most of the season. End of the year I put a 830HP carb that I had built for it. It ran considerably richer before I got it close, But it was still rich according to the plugs. The Boat ran much better with the 830 on it. What kind of timing was in the engine? 12 initial, 37 deg total, all in at 3000rpm.
Obviously, there are a lot of possibilities here and I don't think anyone at this point can point to one direct cause or issue. You could have had a exhaust valve seat that was in improperly or with a slight crack after install? The cylinder #7 was oiling a bit too much leading to some deposits that pre-ignited in that cylinder? As others mentioned here you could have had a 5/7 crossfiring condition? Head gasket could have failed between 5 &7? we could go on and on with suppositions here. In any event the physical damage from the valve seat bouncing around in the cylinder did a lot of quick physical damage, but IN TWO SECONDS or so that much edge of piston damage and underside overheating did not occur. That took some time and indicates something else was wrong in this engine maybe long before it broke up.
I know its painful to look back after a loss like this but its obviously really important that you revisit a lot of examination,build and setup issues before you put a lot more good money down and set up the new replacement new engine. Its always kind of scary when you try to put your faith in a new redo when one is not sure what caused the original failure. One thing you can do is make sure that all the parts and new parts are in top flite condition and setup and that you have good specs. and assembly procedures for what you are putting together.
Not sure any of this will help but just trying to help isolate what may have been problems and help you decide where you might want to go from here.
Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar
Obviously, there are a lot of possibilities here and I don't think anyone at this point can point to one direct cause or issue. You could have had a exhaust valve seat that was in improperly or with a slight crack after install? The cylinder #7 was oiling a bit too much leading to some deposits that pre-ignited in that cylinder? As others mentioned here you could have had a 5/7 crossfiring condition? Head gasket could have failed between 5 &7? we could go on and on with suppositions here. In any event the physical damage from the valve seat bouncing around in the cylinder did a lot of quick physical damage, but IN TWO SECONDS or so that much edge of piston damage and underside overheating did not occur. That took some time and indicates something else was wrong in this engine maybe long before it broke up.
I know its painful to look back after a loss like this but its obviously really important that you revisit a lot of examination,build and setup issues before you put a lot more good money down and set up the new replacement new engine. Its always kind of scary when you try to put your faith in a new redo when one is not sure what caused the original failure. One thing you can do is make sure that all the parts and new parts are in top flite condition and setup and that you have good specs. and assembly procedures for what you are putting together.
Not sure any of this will help but just trying to help isolate what may have been problems and help you decide where you might want to go from here.
Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar
I had a plug loosen up (obviously I didn't tighten it sufficiently) in that cylinder early on. I replaced the plug, and the Boat ran fine for the rest of summer. At first I didn't think that would be the issue, but now I wonder.
Your opinion?
Dave
#67
I appreciate all the input, and can understand the skepticism. I'm just a backyard engine builder and bench racer. people like myself, come on here looking to professionals like yourself for advice and information that we otherwise, don't have access to. Of course some of us are just looking for sympathy for our own short comings...LOL!!
I had a plug loosen up (obviously I didn't tighten it sufficiently) in that cylinder early on. I replaced the plug, and the Boat ran fine for the rest of summer. At first I didn't think that would be the issue, but now I wonder.
Your opinion?
Dave
I had a plug loosen up (obviously I didn't tighten it sufficiently) in that cylinder early on. I replaced the plug, and the Boat ran fine for the rest of summer. At first I didn't think that would be the issue, but now I wonder.
Your opinion?
Dave
#68
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 595
Likes: 31
#69
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 2,053
Likes: 39
From: Further South East of Dome Island
I appreciate all the input, and can understand the skepticism. I'm just a backyard engine builder and bench racer. people like myself, come on here looking to professionals like yourself for advice and information that we otherwise, don't have access to. Of course some of us are just looking for sympathy for our own short comings...LOL!!
I had a plug loosen up (obviously I didn't tighten it sufficiently) in that cylinder early on. I replaced the plug, and the Boat ran fine for the rest of summer. At first I didn't think that would be the issue, but now I wonder.
Your opinion?
Dave
I had a plug loosen up (obviously I didn't tighten it sufficiently) in that cylinder early on. I replaced the plug, and the Boat ran fine for the rest of summer. At first I didn't think that would be the issue, but now I wonder.
Your opinion?
Dave
#70
Registered

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 595
Likes: 31
I appreciate all the input, and can understand the skepticism. I'm just a backyard engine builder and bench racer. people like myself, come on here looking to professionals like yourself for advice and information that we otherwise, don't have access to. Of course some of us are just looking for sympathy for our own short comings...LOL!!
I had a plug loosen up (obviously I didn't tighten it sufficiently) in that cylinder early on. I replaced the plug, and the Boat ran fine for the rest of summer. At first I didn't think that would be the issue, but now I wonder.
Your opinion?
Dave
I had a plug loosen up (obviously I didn't tighten it sufficiently) in that cylinder early on. I replaced the plug, and the Boat ran fine for the rest of summer. At first I didn't think that would be the issue, but now I wonder.
Your opinion?
Dave


