07DominatorSS

Fuel is a nasty thing these days! I use a great new product out from AMSOIL called Quickshot. It won product of the year at SEMA in 2010.

http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/aqs.aspx

KachinaShadow

The article, below, appeared in BoatUS Magazine...

Three Ethanol Myths Clarified
By Bob Adriance

It's time we get to the bottom of how E10 is affecting our engines

In the few years since ethanol began to be widely used in the United States, a lot has been written about its properties, the problems it's created, and how to best cope with its possible effects. Some of the advice has been based on science, some on hearsay. While E10 is not an ideal fuel – and E15 could cause serious problems for marine engines – at least a few myths about ethanol have arisen with the potential to do more harm than good:



Myth #1: Ethanol-enhanced gasoline (E10) loses octane much faster than regular gasoline.
Many mechanics believe that octane loss during winter storage could be great enough to damage an engine when it's run in the spring. These same mechanics will often recommend leaving the tank almost empty so that fresh gasoline can be added in the spring to raise depleted octane levels. While all gasoline loses octane as it ages, ethanol-enhanced gasoline loses octane at about the same rate as regular gasoline, according to Jim Simnick, a technical advisor at BP Global Fuels Technology, and Lew Gibbs, a senior engineering consultant and Chevron Fellow. The two men have over 75 years of combined experience working with gasoline and both agree that the loss of octane over the winter would not be sufficient to damage an engine. Note, however, to keep any gasoline, including E10, as fresh as possible; they said it's good practice to always add fuel stabilizer — an antioxidant — whenever the boat will be idle for long periods.

The recommendation to leave a tank mostly empty is bad advice; it could significantly increase the amount of water that gets into the tank. When enough water enters through the vent, the ethanol will separate ("phase separate") from the gasoline. Leaving a tank mostly empty does three things to increase the chances of phase separation:

It increases the volume of open space in the tank (its "lung capacity") so it can "breathe in" damaging moist air. An almost-empty tank leaves more space on tank walls for condensation to form. Leaving less gasoline in the tank means there will be less ethanol to absorb the condensation.

It's interesting to note that in areas of the Midwest that have been dealing with E10 for over a decade, topping off tanks is common practice. (As an alternative, completely emptying the tank would eliminate any chance of phase separation.)

If phase separation occurs, the highly corrosive ethanol/water mixture will settle to the bottom of the tank and remain there even after fresh fuel is added in the spring. The only way to remedy the problem would then be to drain the tank and add fresh gasoline. The best way to avoid phase separation over the winter (aside from emptying the tank) is to leave the tank 95-percent full (which allows for expansion) so that there's less moist air in the tank, less space for condensation to collect, and more gasoline to absorb whatever moisture does accumulate.


Myth #2: E10 attracts water, so it's important to install a water separator to prevent the water reaching the engine.
Mercury Marine, which recently hosted a Webinar on ethanol myths, noted that ethanol does not "grab water molecules out of the air." It is hydrophilic, which means ethanol holds water. With regular gasoline (E0) as well at E10, the primary cause of water collecting in tanks is condensation on tank walls. But unlike E0, which can absorb almost no moisture, E10 can hold up to half of one percent of water by volume, and the water molecules will dissolve in the fuel. The "solubilized" water will bypass the water separator and burn harmlessly through the engine. Only if phase separation were to occur would a water separator do its job, but by then the fuel itself would be the problem. The phase-separated water/ethanol mixture would settle on the bottom of the tank near the fuel pick-up and would quickly stall out or even damage your engine. And because ethanol is used to boost octane, the remaining (low-octane) gasoline at the top of the tank would also have the potential to damage your engine.

Note, however, that a fuel filter (10-micron) is essential to keep gunk from reaching your engine. Ethanol is a solvent that dissolves resins, rust, and dirt that have accumulated on older tank walls. Especially when you first make the transition to E10, it's important to carry spare filters and a galvanized bucket to store used filters prior to disposal. Even in new engines and tanks, E10 will sometimes form a mysterious gooey substance that will also clog filters. Richard Kolb, the manager of Emissions and Regulations for Volvo Penta, believes the goo is caused by water mixing with one or more of the 108 approved compounds that can be used in gasoline. These compounds vary among suppliers, so one solution is to change to a different brand of gasoline. Another is to use carburetor cleaner, which he says has sometimes remedied the problem.


Myth #3: Certain additives can prevent phase separation?
Both Gibbs and Simnick said that the additives that eliminate water may work incrementally to protect against phase separation, but Joe Simnick stressed that no additives will stand up to a good slug of water. Lew Gibbs added that the best way to prevent phase separation in E10 is to "keep it dry, keep it dry, keep it dry." That means keeping the tank filled to prevent condensation. Mercury Marine has also noted that, contrary to statements made by some companies that produce fuel additives, there are no additives that can make stale or phase-separated gasoline usable.

E10 is certainly not as trouble-free as E0, especially the first few tankfulls. But for newer engines, those built after about 1991, there's no reason the initial problems can't be overcome. No less an authority than Mercury Marine says, "After the transition period from E0, E10 may actually be a superior marine fuel as it tends to keep low levels of water moving through the fuel system, keeping the
system 'dry.'"

Bob Adriance is Editor of Seaworthy, the BoatUS Marine Insurance damage-avoidance publication, and author of Seaworthy, Essential Lessons of Things Gone Wrong (published by International Marine/McGraw Hill, available at www.Amazon.com and major bookstores).

Randy Nielsen

iTrader: (4)

I have rebuilt a whole lot of outboard carbs & since they dont have water seperarors they ae more suseptable to water in the fuel. I ran all boat motors with a known good source of fuel so when they left they ran right. I watched a cutomer pick up his boat ((40hp evinrude) told the guy DO NOT RUN ETHANOL IN THIS MOTOR!!! He goes over next door & fills his tank with ethanol & took the boat out. Came back an hour later boat wouldnt run had to paddle to shore. I told him as marked on repair order not to run ethanol, They took it out shut it off & fished when done no start. cust pissed I told them I watched them fill tank with ethanol fuel ,told them I will drain float bowls, if any water present they can suck rope sure enough water in the bowls. runs ok when all mixed together but given time to seperate thats all it took .boating is not cheap & when you try to get by cheaply you usually get bit in th the azz

KachinaShadow

So, do you have E0 readily available in Nebraska? I figured it would mostly be E10.

Randy Nielsen

iTrader: (4)

We have 87oct reg which is fine for my boat(496 standards) 91oct 10%ethanol &E85 so far also 93oct but Im not sure what it is. I talked with the genntleman at full throttle & he hasdone extesive testing on the 496 & basically told me im wasting moey on the high test cause i might only see 3-4 hp gain BTW when I stabilize my fuel I usually double or triple the amount on the bottle just to make sure & never had to replace anything yet. Any other questions pm me your number Ill give you a call.ASi am a 1 figer typer &it takes forever. Randy

t500hps

Installed built motors in my 382 and had 2 injectors fail.....at WOT. Engines had 2 hours on them. Turns out they were defective and not ethanol related.

Took 6 weeks to get the motor out/rebuilt/re-running but neither engine was running correctly. Precision Marine had done the mapping of the EFI and arrangements were made to get him out on the boat. He determined bad fuel was causing timing to be retarded and it was verified with a portable OB tank setup to run..........fuel in the tank had been sitting just those 6 weeks.

Although I do believe stabilizer will allow fuel to sit all winter I no pump the tank empty and burn it in the vehicles.

t500hps

WOW.....I wish non-E was available here. I've called 2 distributors and the closest stations they deliver non-E to are roughly 100 miles away.

mreedy

Have you checked fuel-testers?

http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=VA

t500hps

I have in the past and just looked again. A new one is on the list and mapquest shows it's 45 miles away but in a direction I never go. Of the 2 rivers I frequent and the region I live nothing is any closer (Richmond VA)

Raylar

Just to set the record straight here on octane levels on Merc 496"s. Stock 496 Mags and 496HO's run the best on 87-89 octane fuels, ethanol or not. These engines as programmed stock from Mercury do not need the extra octane and the slower burning 91-93 octanes tend to just soot the transoms more and they don't produce anymore power for more performance. If the stock engine is in high temperatures or closer to detonation events with slight detonation (knocking)then higher octanes will help keep the engine out of detonation,retarded timing and naturally develop more power than a hot engine in hot air that is trying to run on the lower octane fuel and is slightly detonating and setting off signals from the knock sensors to the ECM.

As for the ethanol issues that Boating article was written to sound like there are no real issues with ethanol blended fuel? If that is the case then why did Mercury and Volvo both just finish extensive testing on their engines on ethanol blended fuels and report back to the EPA that these engines all suffered significant damage after long loaded operation and that the ethanol based fuel was shown to be the root cause??

Sounds like the major juries are still out on ethanol both E10 and especially E15 as to what damage occurs to marine engines with thiese fuels in normal offseason storage and inseason usage. Most boaters know what phase seperation in ethanol blended fuel is and this can be a major problem no matter what addtives are added and how much fuel water seperation is provided.
The bigger question now just starting to be answered with more usage, testing and breakdowns is what are the damaging effects of some of the new in fuel compounds that are being formed in ethanol and gasoline blended fuels and what happens when these compounds start having serious negative effects on engine systems and interior parts!
Trust those who say this ethanol problem and issue is far from over and the truth on longer term effects may be worse than just the moisture content of these fuels and storage issues!

Remember these are a lot of the same agencies and people who said MTBE was Ok to add to our gasoline and then after correct testing and evaluation later found out it was a dangerous carcinogen and poison and we taxpayers have been paying for this changeover and clean up for years.
I guess what I am saying here is that "These good new fuel types are never a problem UNTIL THEY BECOME A PROBLEM!"
So say our wonderful government agencies, corn growers, fuel makers, lobbiests and legislators until the problem is overwhelming and identified. Then we get to pay for their ineptness and we suffer the losses and costs!
I am not saying ethanol blended fuel is useless or damaging in all uses, I am just not sure its the best fuel for marine usage period!
Sorry I just don't trust these types based on their past performances to deliver the Whole Truth and Nothing But the Truth!

Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar