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MILD THUNDER 05-03-2019 10:44 PM

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.off...d9d9b5c4d.jpeg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.off...592d842a5.jpeg
Crude intentions 502. He asked me to post his sheet, his wifi is slow out at sea

mggdoors 05-03-2019 10:46 PM


Originally Posted by MILD THUNDER (Post 4685271)
I dont think anyones against him. But if we're talkin shop, lets talk shop. He's made about two dozen claims in this thread, that are simply untrue. Things like his engines are going to run circles around a 525 merc, use way less fuel, his single pattern cam will make more torque than a dual pattern, and so on. Why not just start a thread, list the parts combo, and post the results. No need to speculate, bash big blocks, and make false statements...I mean, he claims his engines are so super efficient, yet no fuel flow data posted nor gathered on the dyno runs, and the BSFC numbers were nothing a decently built big block cant achieve

The LS engines been out for OVER TWENTY YEARS!! Its time guys stop acting like they defy the laws of physics. Sure they are a nice platform, but good lord, they arent magic. They are a friggen pushrod two valve V8. lol

You know what is really boils down to I built it. I stated it. I missed my mark. I still posted it knowing I would get ****. Ran it again made some gains. Missed. Still posted. The point is I had the balls to do it. I gave it a shot. I showed the public exact results with stock ls3 heads. Ive never been anti big block I had them. Been there. Done that. No hatred. Just trying something different. We are all boaters here. What or who am I hurting by posting some data. Im not the guy who beats up or bad mouths people on here. I try to inspire them. I owned up to my end. I always will. Btw I really would call my engines built but you choose what they are.

MILD THUNDER 05-03-2019 10:51 PM

fwiw, crude intentions engine was dynoed in full marine trim, wet exhaust, all accessories, sea pump, etc. Not stripped down with race car headers , etc. Theres some parasitic loss there, which also affects bsfc numbers. A fully dressed marine engine, like how mercury dynoes them, will never see the fantasy brake specifics, esp the forced induction engines.

You didnt dyno with marine wet exhaust, sea pump, circulating pump , etc, MGG? I dont recall

mggdoors 05-03-2019 10:52 PM


Originally Posted by MILD THUNDER (Post 4685273)
What do you think it cost two build two NEW big block marine engines? He has brand new blocks, cranks, rods, heads, cams, carbs, the whole shot, for around 10k per engine. What do you think, you can do it for 3500 per engine?

Just sayin. He made it sound like a pretty much stock motor with ported heads. This is exactly why I prefer conversation face to face. Too much misinterpretation

MILD THUNDER 05-03-2019 10:53 PM


Originally Posted by mggdoors (Post 4685277)

You know what is really boils down to I built it. I stated it. I missed my mark. I still posted it knowing I would get ****. Ran it again made some gains. Missed. Still posted. The point is I had the balls to do it. I gave it a shot. I showed the public exact results with stock ls3 heads. Ive never been anti big block I had them. Been there. Done that. No hatred. Just trying something different. We are all boaters here. What or who am I hurting by posting some data. Im not the guy who beats up or bad mouths people on here. I try to inspire them. I owned up to my end. I always will. Btw I really would call my engines built but you choose what they are.

Im glad you shared your results. Especially the cam comparison. Aside from all the nonsense and bickering, theres something to be learned there.

mggdoors 05-03-2019 10:54 PM


Originally Posted by MILD THUNDER (Post 4685278)
fwiw, crude intentions engine was dynoed in full marine trim, wet exhaust, all accessories, sea pump, etc. Not stripped down with race car headers , etc. Theres some parasitic loss there, which also affects bsfc numbers. A fully dressed marine engine, like how mercury dynoes them, will never see the fantasy brake specifics, esp the forced induction engines.

You didnt dyno with marine wet exhaust, sea pump, circulating pump , etc, MGG? I dont recall

dyno with everything but wet exhaust. Blew up crank water pump on the dyno as a matter of fact. Figured it was more important to me to get egt data for tuning. You can see in the video I posted two thing. One the accessories where on the motor minus the sea pump and two the thing went crazy lean initially with the 1050. Being corrected as we speak with new carbs that Patrick at pro systems is kindly trading out

mggdoors 05-03-2019 10:56 PM


Originally Posted by MILD THUNDER (Post 4685280)
Im glad you shared your results. Especially the cam comparison. Aside from all the nonsense and bickering, theres something to be learned there.

Thank you. Like I said in an earlier post I will update at end of season when cnc heads go on the motor. Again. For comparison sake.

MILD THUNDER 05-03-2019 10:56 PM


Originally Posted by mggdoors (Post 4685281)

dyno with everything but wet exhaust. Blew up crank water pump on the dyno as a matter of fact. Figured it was more important to me to get egt data for tuning

Sea pump? I have no data on this, but I think out of all the accessories, (steering, alternator, circulating pump), the sea pump robs the most power. I thought I remember reading here something like 15-20hp just to turn the sea pump, idk .

mggdoors 05-03-2019 11:01 PM


Originally Posted by MILD THUNDER (Post 4685283)
Sea pump? I have no data on this, but I think out of all the accessories, (steering, alternator, circulating pump), the sea pump robs the most power. I thought I remember reading here something like 15-20hp just to turn the sea pump, idk .

most of the runs are with it. We blew the rear seal after the bearing locked up. Had to remove it. I have like 15 pulls. Ill find out how much it pulled for hp

Crude Intentions 05-04-2019 01:13 AM


Originally Posted by mggdoors (Post 4685279)

Just sayin. He made it sound like a pretty much stock motor with ported heads. This is exactly why I prefer conversation face to face. Too much misinterpretation

sorry for the delay. Offshore internet is being extra ****ty. These are stock GM 502s. They have cams and box stock EQ iron heads. 8.7:1 compression which also contributes to the bsfcs being higher than normal. The plan is for blowers but still scared to pop the bravos. That dyno number is with wet exhaust and not even a set of long tubes like the 525. These cams desperately want longer runners. I’m too poor for that. Lol

for the record I’m a fan of the LS platform and think you made great power for what an LS is. I only take issue with the claim it would make a 525 look like a fool through the whole powerband and I don’t see where you beat the 525 at all. You make peak power a little higher but a fraction of the torque. This is no ball busting on the LS or what power it made just against the claims made.

You also mention there aren’t many LS powered stern drive boats yet claim they’re cheaper and better. If that were the case don’t you think there would be more than 20 of them?

plavutka 05-04-2019 01:24 AM


Originally Posted by MILD THUNDER (Post 4685283)
Sea pump? I have no data on this, but I think out of all the accessories, (steering, alternator, circulating pump), the sea pump robs the most power. I thought I remember reading here something like 15-20hp just to turn the sea pump, idk .

Hard to belive. Perhaps 2 hp or less.
P = Q x H x g x 0,4 (Kw)


p.s
Under name Volvo Penta it is a lot of LS3 marine engines. Not wery sttrong, but @ 430 hp made more prop torque like BBC HO.

mggdoors 05-04-2019 02:35 AM


Originally Posted by Crude Intentions (Post 4685291)


sorry for the delay. Offshore internet is being extra ****ty. These are stock GM 502s. They have cams and box stock EQ iron heads. 8.7:1 compression which also contributes to the bsfcs being higher than normal. The plan is for blowers but still scared to pop the bravos. That dyno number is with wet exhaust and not even a set of long tubes like the 525. These cams desperately want longer runners. I’m too poor for that. Lol

for the record I’m a fan of the LS platform and think you made great power for what an LS is. I only take issue with the claim it would make a 525 look like a fool through the whole powerband and I don’t see where you beat the 525 at all. You make peak power a little higher but a fraction of the torque. This is no ball busting on the LS or what power it made just against the claims made.

You also mention there aren’t many LS powered stern drive boats yet claim they’re cheaper and better. If that were the case don’t you think there would be more than 20 of them?

Probably going to get **** for this but I can say from personal experience that the bravo will be fine. I ran bravo on both the sunny and currently on the daytona (same drives even) behind blower motors. Take off nice and dont murder the throttle below 3k. If you think your coming out of the water then get out of the gas. Ive had better luck with bravos then xr any day. And if you do have an issue much cheaper and easier to find parts for. Keep the oil changed( I do it every 10 hours with the engine oil). Might sound excessive but oil is cheaper than mechanical. Last but not least drive shower, preferably wag engineering billet cap. If it breaks it will most likeley be the floor. Easy fix. I have two spare bravos sitting still waiting for failure. Keep in mind mine are behind a cat with 5 blades. Very hard on drives but still ticking. Btw my drives on my daytona are 1994.
Are you running the eq 320? Thats what I ran on the blower motors. Good heads but heaaaavvvvyyy

mggdoors 05-04-2019 02:37 AM


Originally Posted by plavutka (Post 4685293)
Hard to belive. Perhaps 2 hp or less.
P = Q x H x g x 0,4 (Kw)


p.s
Under name Volvo Penta it is a lot of LS3 marine engines. Not wery sttrong, but @ 430 hp made more prop torque like BBC HO.

I havent found but a 4 hp variable on any run. Some of it has to be the pump but not every run is identical either

SB 05-04-2019 08:50 AM


Originally Posted by MILD THUNDER (Post 4685271)
I dont think anyones against him. But if we're talkin shop, lets talk shop. He's made about two dozen claims in this thread, that are simply untrue. Things like his engines are going to run circles around a 525 merc, use way less fuel, his single pattern cam will make more torque than a dual pattern, and so on

I will read from the beginning then. Thus why I asked. Thanks,

Crude Intentions 05-04-2019 10:16 AM

Yes EQ 320s. Trust me I want nothing to do with XRs. So far my combo has lived for 70hours. I do engines and drives every 25 hrs.

Hot Rod 29 05-04-2019 10:48 AM


Originally Posted by MILD THUNDER (Post 4685239)
Im surprised the twin LS package would be 1,000 lbs less than a 525efi engine. The ls engine is 500lbs lighter than the 525efi?

i weighed my mpi gen+ 350’s vs my new LS3’s and I’m saving nearly 400 lb each. That’s SBC vs LS.

Crude Intentions 05-04-2019 11:09 AM


Originally Posted by Hot Rod 29 (Post 4685337)


i weighed my mpi gen+ 350’s vs my new LS3’s and I’m saving nearly 400 lb each. That’s SBC vs LS.

LS3 is aluminum block right? We are comparing iron blocks here

242LS 05-04-2019 08:54 PM

DynoTorque Compares
 
Here's a torque comparison of the 4 dyno sheets in this thread.....

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.off...9c4e62ac2.jpeg

phragle 05-04-2019 09:20 PM

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.off...de7f1b6768.jpg
Here is a 454..basic 525 sc clone, 8.5:1, AK alum heads, 731 cam... Without doing a lot of number crunching, it was a pretty budget friendly build

bck 05-04-2019 09:26 PM


Originally Posted by 242LS (Post 4685385)
Here's a torque comparison of the 4 dyno sheets in this thread.....

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.off...9c4e62ac2.jpeg

What magic is this? I'd like to do this.

hogie roll 05-05-2019 05:03 AM


Originally Posted by bck (Post 4685388)
What magic is this? I'd like to do this.

excel?

Wildman_grafix 05-05-2019 08:51 AM

These are starting to show up more in some I/O apps but are expensive. Drop in ready price shipped to your door with CMI e-top type headers are 24k.

The nice thing about them is the service life. The Air boat guys have been using them and beating the **** out of them. Seems the top ends last about 1300-1500 hours and then close to 2800-3000 is rebuild time.

LSA 6.2L 556HP V8 Marine Power USA

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.off...353be6e715.png

glassdave 05-05-2019 09:53 AM

Nice! I was hoping someone would pick up that line of LS marine engines. Indmar was marketing them six or seen years ago but when i talked to them about re powering the Batboat race fleet they were in the beginning process of switching their line over to Fords Coyote platform. Wonder how their pricing is, when i talked to them a drop in ready version of the CTS-V engine was in the high teens with rshaust . . . and a warranty in the race boats . . . thought that was pretty good :cool:



Originally Posted by Wildman_grafix (Post 4685412)
These are starting to show up more in some I/O apps but are expensive. Drop in ready price shipped to your door with CMI e-top type headers are 24k.

The nice thing about them is the service life. The Air boat guys have been using them and beating the **** out of them. Seems the top ends last about 1300-1500 hours and then close to 2800-3000 is rebuild time.

LSA 6.2L 556HP V8 Marine Power USA

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.off...353be6e715.png



bck 05-05-2019 10:02 AM

I wonder if that's a standard automotive crate motor with marine accessories bolted on ? Looks like the crate motor sells for a little over 12k without electronics.

phragle 05-05-2019 10:25 AM

GM powertrain has been offering that motor for marine use for years...

https://www.gmpowertrain.com/engines...et.pdf?v=2&v=2

Wildman_grafix 05-05-2019 10:56 AM


Originally Posted by phragle (Post 4685434)
GM powertrain has been offering that motor for marine use for years...

https://www.gmpowertrain.com/engines...et.pdf?v=2&v=2

correct but they have a marine version and a car version. I haven’t been able to find out the difference other then valves. The one thing I haven’t checked is if you can purchase the marine version from a GM performance dealer.

I was told marine power will be coming out with the LT4 SC direct injected version soon. The guy I talked with said GM is doing the cert testing for them this summer. Should be around 650ish HP

but they want $24,000 for the 550, hate to see how much the LT4 would be.

Another question is what kind of buss system to they have.

phragle 05-05-2019 11:21 AM


Originally Posted by Wildman_grafix (Post 4685440)



but they want $24,000 for the 550, hate to see how much the LT4 would be..


And how much is a 550 hp motor from merc ???? lol

Wildman_grafix 05-05-2019 01:44 PM


Originally Posted by phragle (Post 4685445)
And how much is a 550 hp motor from merc ???? lol

true. And that was with everything drop in, just add tails. I do like the service intervals. That and I would gain 6” between my motors.

phragle 05-05-2019 02:58 PM

6 inches is a LOT of room............ May not sound like it, but it is....

sutphen 30 05-05-2019 07:11 PM


Originally Posted by Wildman_grafix (Post 4685440)


correct but they have a marine version and a car version. I haven’t been able to find out the difference other then valves. The one thing I haven’t checked is if you can purchase the marine version from a GM performance dealer.

I was told marine power will be coming out with the LT4 SC direct injected version soon. The guy I talked with said GM is doing the cert testing for them this summer. Should be around 650ish HP

but they want $24,000 for the 550, hate to see how much the LT4 would be.

Another question is what kind of buss system to they have.

here you go,,time to order up 2.:D have to add about 2200 for the electronics.


https://www.schwartzperformance.com/...en-5-19368622/

mggdoors 05-06-2019 03:41 AM

The big advantage is truly the new ls engines lt series gen 5 (newer than mine) with the direct injection and variable cam timing. Would need to upgrade fuel system and use a standalone but more torque and hp everywhere than mine. No carb option though. One of you asked about the internals on the crate engines. I actually spoke to marine power about there line of engine when ordering exhaust and they are stock crate engines with inconel exhaust. Plus all the fancy brackets and so on. Nothing special. Keep an eye out on the new l8t 6.6l coming out in the new silverados. That will be my next project build when I get hand on a couple but need to wait for them to come out and get totalled first. The heads on the new gen engines are amazing. I urge you to look at the l96 vs the l8t comparison for tq vs hp. The vvt definitley makes a nice difference with a much smaller cam needed.

mggdoors 05-06-2019 03:45 AM


Originally Posted by bck (Post 4685388)
What magic is this? I'd like to do this.

Looks like excel maybe. Should have done a hp one too. Even better would be a comparison of common engines such as 496ho, hp500, 525efi, and 525sc. That would be cool to see

mggdoors 05-06-2019 03:58 AM


Originally Posted by phragle (Post 4685387)
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.off...de7f1b6768.jpg
Here is a 454..basic 525 sc clone, 8.5:1, AK alum heads, 731 cam... Without doing a lot of number crunching, it was a pretty budget friendly build

And this is why I questioned dyno accuracy when comparing my run to the 525sc that was run. The 525sc sheet I posted was well below those numbers with the same cam. But to be fair I have no clue to what heads where on it

phragle 05-06-2019 06:11 AM


Originally Posted by mggdoors (Post 4685543)

And this is why I questioned dyno accuracy when comparing my run to the 525sc that was run. The 525sc sheet I posted was well below those numbers with the same cam. But to be fair I have no clue to what heads where on it

I stated what heads...AK Racing....

Wildman_grafix 05-06-2019 10:10 AM


Originally Posted by 242LS (Post 4685385)
Here's a torque comparison of the 4 dyno sheets in this thread.....

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.off...9c4e62ac2.jpeg

You can tell what mercury was aiming for, talk about a solid flat TQ curve.

mggdoors 05-06-2019 10:13 AM


Originally Posted by phragle (Post 4685549)
I stated what heads...AK Racing....

Im talking about the 525sc dyno sheet i posted. I have no clue what heads were on those engines as they were a customers of my dyno shops

Wildman_grafix 05-06-2019 10:13 AM


Originally Posted by sutphen 30 (Post 4685487)
here you go,,time to order up 2.:D have to add about 2200 for the electronics.


https://www.schwartzperformance.com/...en-5-19368622/

"Not intended for marine applications". I wonder is the exhaust valves the only thing they change when they make it "Marine" .

hogie roll 05-06-2019 11:02 AM


Originally Posted by bck (Post 4685388)
What magic is this? I'd like to do this.

Heres some NA pump gas big blocks, boats and street rods.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.off...2e31cb04d6.png

14 apache 05-06-2019 11:13 AM

That looks like connect the dots lol.

mggdoors 05-06-2019 11:19 AM


Originally Posted by Wildman_grafix (Post 4685593)
"Not intended for marine applications". I wonder is the exhaust valves the only thing they change when they make it "Marine" .

I literally asked them about this. For instance on the ls3 I asked if it was forged internals. He said no it was a gm crate that is marinized via inconel exhaust valves, which the l96 already came with anyways. I think that statement about not for marine use is more of a warranty disclaimer, just as say a zz454 or any other street crate application might say the same.


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