GL-4 or GL-5 for Bravo's
12-28-2002 | 05:38 PM
#32
Platinum Member
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,562
Likes: 0
From: so. WI
Boy, this discussion has gone deeper than is really necessary for a boat engine or outdrive!
I'm not a salesman. I'm a jet technician and consultant with over 20 years of experience on some of the world's most expensive private and corporate jets.
I'm not even going to come close to getting in a pissing match with anyone about lubricants or fluids used in recips or turbines, regardless of mfg. or base. I have more than enough text book and real world experience to know what works and what doesn't, and am regulated in my work with what I can and can't use anyway.
BTW, it's polyolester, not polyester. These oils are the best in the business for their ability to handle the high heats associated with turbines, where 75-80% of an oils' purpose is to remove heat from frictional parts. They work quite well protecting engines worth millions of dollars, where the cost of one shaft support bearing would buy you a new HP500, and believe me, GE, Allied Signal, and Pratt & Whitney spend ample research dollars on lubricant reasearch to protect their engines.
As you are finding out, all mfg.'s have their own testing procedures. Just adds to the confusion of trying to compare one to the other. Amsoil is a good product, and good luck not only with your sales of it, but your research and fact-finding mission as well. So many of these standards are geared strictly to meeting the needs of the automotive industry. Their is a lot more out there, with a lot more stringent requirements.
Plain and simple, Amsoil is not my choice. To each his own.
Jim
I'm not a salesman. I'm a jet technician and consultant with over 20 years of experience on some of the world's most expensive private and corporate jets.
I'm not even going to come close to getting in a pissing match with anyone about lubricants or fluids used in recips or turbines, regardless of mfg. or base. I have more than enough text book and real world experience to know what works and what doesn't, and am regulated in my work with what I can and can't use anyway.
BTW, it's polyolester, not polyester. These oils are the best in the business for their ability to handle the high heats associated with turbines, where 75-80% of an oils' purpose is to remove heat from frictional parts. They work quite well protecting engines worth millions of dollars, where the cost of one shaft support bearing would buy you a new HP500, and believe me, GE, Allied Signal, and Pratt & Whitney spend ample research dollars on lubricant reasearch to protect their engines.
As you are finding out, all mfg.'s have their own testing procedures. Just adds to the confusion of trying to compare one to the other. Amsoil is a good product, and good luck not only with your sales of it, but your research and fact-finding mission as well. So many of these standards are geared strictly to meeting the needs of the automotive industry. Their is a lot more out there, with a lot more stringent requirements.
Plain and simple, Amsoil is not my choice. To each his own.
Jim
Last edited by jafo; 12-28-2002 at 05:40 PM.
12-28-2002 | 06:33 PM
#33
Thread Starter
Registered
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 797
Likes: 1
From: NW USA
Jafo, Thank for pointing out my mistake. I thought polyolester what a mistype. I respect your real world experience and knowledge in this field and have no intentions of getting into a piising contest about this. The ultimate result, I hope, would be that individuals would be able to make a more informed choice about what lube to use, and why.
Actually, I set out to find out what the best Amsoil lube to use was. I still want to get to the bottom of that, but nobody has been able to answer my original question. Maybe Merc doesn't even know.
Thanks for all the input
Fact:
Redline says they are the best
Royal Purple says they are the best
Amsoil says they are the best.
Merc wont even let you use anything else
Countless others say they are the best.
Not everyone can be the best.
Actually, I set out to find out what the best Amsoil lube to use was. I still want to get to the bottom of that, but nobody has been able to answer my original question. Maybe Merc doesn't even know.
Thanks for all the input
Fact:
Redline says they are the best
Royal Purple says they are the best
Amsoil says they are the best.
Merc wont even let you use anything else
Countless others say they are the best.
Not everyone can be the best.
12-28-2002 | 09:10 PM
#34
Platinum Member
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,562
Likes: 0
From: so. WI
Jim -
Your facts are exactly right - they are all the best; how would they ever sell the stuff if they didn't claim that, right?
It actually is nice to have a choice.
One thing for sure, Merc will only recommend their own lubes and oils, and won't give any recommendations outside of that spectrum. When I switched to RedLine with my old Formula (this is a twin Alpha equipped boat with built SBC's) I no longer saw any fuzz on the plug like I had using the green hi-per lube from Merc. I have heard others say the same when switching to other synthetics as well. Same held true with my Bravo-equipped AT.
It also reduced (didn't completely get rid of) the chalking on the side of the drives. I think it is a fairly well-known fact that the only hotter running drive out there than the Alpha is the Bravo III, so every little bit of temp reduction helps, and all synthetics are better with heat than conventional oil. The addition of drive showers and external reservoirs got rid of the chalking completely.
I do think some metallurgical failures to shafts and gears in these outdrives could be heat-stress/fatigue related over time.
IMHO, any Amsoil, RedLine, or Royal Purple oil in the drives would be an improvement over the Merc.
bobby- the high running temp of the Alpha drive is why I used the Shockproof Heavy- it really isn't any more viscous than the Merc hi-perf, and is what RedLine recommended for that drive.
Still curious to what Imco recommends for their modified drives! Anyone know?
Your facts are exactly right - they are all the best; how would they ever sell the stuff if they didn't claim that, right?
It actually is nice to have a choice.
One thing for sure, Merc will only recommend their own lubes and oils, and won't give any recommendations outside of that spectrum. When I switched to RedLine with my old Formula (this is a twin Alpha equipped boat with built SBC's) I no longer saw any fuzz on the plug like I had using the green hi-per lube from Merc. I have heard others say the same when switching to other synthetics as well. Same held true with my Bravo-equipped AT.
It also reduced (didn't completely get rid of) the chalking on the side of the drives. I think it is a fairly well-known fact that the only hotter running drive out there than the Alpha is the Bravo III, so every little bit of temp reduction helps, and all synthetics are better with heat than conventional oil. The addition of drive showers and external reservoirs got rid of the chalking completely.
I do think some metallurgical failures to shafts and gears in these outdrives could be heat-stress/fatigue related over time.
IMHO, any Amsoil, RedLine, or Royal Purple oil in the drives would be an improvement over the Merc.
bobby- the high running temp of the Alpha drive is why I used the Shockproof Heavy- it really isn't any more viscous than the Merc hi-perf, and is what RedLine recommended for that drive.
Still curious to what Imco recommends for their modified drives! Anyone know?
12-28-2002 | 11:15 PM
#35
Charter Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,074
Likes: 0
From: Central, Ohio USA
NW_Jim,
There is an ingredient in the Merc's HP gear lube that an engineer friend thinks is very important for marine gear lube to have. It is Molybdenum Disulfide. Mere used to list it on their jugs of gear lube, but don't anymore. I am a big proponent of using synthetic gears lubes and have been using them in my Bravos since 1991, along with drive showers. I had my first gear failure this year and it was in new XR drives that we think had a problem with the manufacturing of the pinion gears (see other thread on pinion gear for details). The synthetic I use has not been mentioned here and does not have moly in it. I am real interested in what you find out, as it looks like RedLine Shockproof might be the next gear lube I use.
Here are a couple of paragraphs I have found on what moly does.
1. The lubricating properties of moly come from its structure of stacked plates. Each moly particle, on a microscopic scale, can be visualized in simple terms as a series of buttered bread slices one on another. The bread represents layers of molybdenum atoms and butter represents layers of sulfur atoms. The bread and butter units align themselves parallel to the metal surfaces in contact and adhere by mechanical and physical forces to the peaks and valleys of the metal surfaces. Because the butter layers are weak, the layers of the bread and butter easily slide sideways on each other while still adhering to the opposed metal surfaces. Metal-to-metal contact is minimized because the moly fills in the peaks and valleys, and it creates a protective film over the metal surface. Exceptionally smooth contact surfaces are established as the moly film develops, thus reducing friction, wear, and its attendant rise in temperature. The moly film is not permanent, but it can be replenished from the moly contained in the bulk lubricant.
2. From Mr Moly web site.
The molybdenum disulfide molecules in Mr. MOLY arrange themselves into layers into which each molybdenum atom is sandwiched between two sulfur atoms. The sulfur atoms are attracted to metals and therefore become plated or bonded on to each of the adjacent bearing surfaces. In between these two platings, further layers of molecules form. The sulfur-to-metal bonding is very strong, but the sulfur-to-sulfur bonding between adjacent molecules is very weak, allowing molecules to slide freely over one another. In this way direct contact of metal-to-metal surfaces is prevented and friction is considerably reduced. Consequently, local heating and wear is inhibited and protection is achieved even under extreme conditions of pressure and temperature.
The molybdenum disulfide plating is, in effect, a separating layer of immense strength, greater than the yield stress of most metals...and in addition it possesses the low coefficient of friction of .03 to .06 which gives more efficient lubrication combined with this greater protection.
There is an ingredient in the Merc's HP gear lube that an engineer friend thinks is very important for marine gear lube to have. It is Molybdenum Disulfide. Mere used to list it on their jugs of gear lube, but don't anymore. I am a big proponent of using synthetic gears lubes and have been using them in my Bravos since 1991, along with drive showers. I had my first gear failure this year and it was in new XR drives that we think had a problem with the manufacturing of the pinion gears (see other thread on pinion gear for details). The synthetic I use has not been mentioned here and does not have moly in it. I am real interested in what you find out, as it looks like RedLine Shockproof might be the next gear lube I use.
Here are a couple of paragraphs I have found on what moly does.
1. The lubricating properties of moly come from its structure of stacked plates. Each moly particle, on a microscopic scale, can be visualized in simple terms as a series of buttered bread slices one on another. The bread represents layers of molybdenum atoms and butter represents layers of sulfur atoms. The bread and butter units align themselves parallel to the metal surfaces in contact and adhere by mechanical and physical forces to the peaks and valleys of the metal surfaces. Because the butter layers are weak, the layers of the bread and butter easily slide sideways on each other while still adhering to the opposed metal surfaces. Metal-to-metal contact is minimized because the moly fills in the peaks and valleys, and it creates a protective film over the metal surface. Exceptionally smooth contact surfaces are established as the moly film develops, thus reducing friction, wear, and its attendant rise in temperature. The moly film is not permanent, but it can be replenished from the moly contained in the bulk lubricant.
2. From Mr Moly web site.
The molybdenum disulfide molecules in Mr. MOLY arrange themselves into layers into which each molybdenum atom is sandwiched between two sulfur atoms. The sulfur atoms are attracted to metals and therefore become plated or bonded on to each of the adjacent bearing surfaces. In between these two platings, further layers of molecules form. The sulfur-to-metal bonding is very strong, but the sulfur-to-sulfur bonding between adjacent molecules is very weak, allowing molecules to slide freely over one another. In this way direct contact of metal-to-metal surfaces is prevented and friction is considerably reduced. Consequently, local heating and wear is inhibited and protection is achieved even under extreme conditions of pressure and temperature.
The molybdenum disulfide plating is, in effect, a separating layer of immense strength, greater than the yield stress of most metals...and in addition it possesses the low coefficient of friction of .03 to .06 which gives more efficient lubrication combined with this greater protection.
12-30-2002 | 12:41 PM
#39
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 239
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Called Imco and asked what they wanted in my Bravo XR upper/Imco SC lower and they recomended Torco RTF. Anyone used this or know how it compares.
Sorry, It is RTF (Found it) Synthetic GL5
http://www.torcoracingoils.com/produ...tsGroupIDPK=94
Sorry, It is RTF (Found it) Synthetic GL5
http://www.torcoracingoils.com/produ...tsGroupIDPK=94
Last edited by zahndok; 12-30-2002 at 01:36 PM.
