F1 Motor Issues Need Help
08-28-2003, 09:59 PM
#12
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That's better Kevin. But come to think of it, you're better off with the CAPS. Anyway, you have a valid point as does the rest of the F1 teams. I didn't realize how much power the 525 generated. It seems that the LLC didn't know that either. The only way the LLC is going to fix this mess is to allow just one engine. Plain and simple. I would keep the 525 as it is the latest offering from Mercury. There is a market for the HP500EFI that some teams are using. Plenty of pleasure boaters would buy them at a reasonable price.
The "One Engine Program" would help get F1 back on track and bring Mercury back into the limelight.
It is obviously a frustrating situation.
The "One Engine Program" would help get F1 back on track and bring Mercury back into the limelight.
It is obviously a frustrating situation.
08-28-2003, 11:36 PM
#13
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Scott,
You and Randy ran the same speed for 10 miles. You bet. Why, simple. A 30 pitch prop turning 5200 RPM is not going to make the boat go any slower or faster no matter how much HP you throw at it. The HP and torque are accelerating the boats with the 525's through the turns faster. On average 3 seconds per corner. Do the math. 5 turns 8 times = 120 seconds or 2 miles at the end of the race. Seems this is what is happening at every race. Not faster at top end, (although with more horse power pushing more pitch they would be), there just not burning off the speed in the corners. Thats the problem APBA has to deal with.
A separate issue is settling in on 1 engine package and transitioning to it. The 525 is expensive. As stated on other threads, most owners are not going to re-power existing boats at a net cost of $22,000 to $25,000 or anywhere close to that. Just doesn't make sense (for most).
APBA has proposed the 496 package because it's affordable. Affordability is viewed as an issue that could help the class grow. (This is a topic for another thread.) So good for the racers. I suggest they boost the HP to 515 to match the existing HP 500's so you can race what you got if you want. Now, for about the price of an overhaul and the value of your engine, you can get a 496 which is a whole lot less than the $29,000 to $32,000 cost on a HP 525.
And Randy is right too. Hard work, a good boat and most importantly the people in it will be the determining factor on podium finishes.
J
You and Randy ran the same speed for 10 miles. You bet. Why, simple. A 30 pitch prop turning 5200 RPM is not going to make the boat go any slower or faster no matter how much HP you throw at it. The HP and torque are accelerating the boats with the 525's through the turns faster. On average 3 seconds per corner. Do the math. 5 turns 8 times = 120 seconds or 2 miles at the end of the race. Seems this is what is happening at every race. Not faster at top end, (although with more horse power pushing more pitch they would be), there just not burning off the speed in the corners. Thats the problem APBA has to deal with.
A separate issue is settling in on 1 engine package and transitioning to it. The 525 is expensive. As stated on other threads, most owners are not going to re-power existing boats at a net cost of $22,000 to $25,000 or anywhere close to that. Just doesn't make sense (for most).
APBA has proposed the 496 package because it's affordable. Affordability is viewed as an issue that could help the class grow. (This is a topic for another thread.) So good for the racers. I suggest they boost the HP to 515 to match the existing HP 500's so you can race what you got if you want. Now, for about the price of an overhaul and the value of your engine, you can get a 496 which is a whole lot less than the $29,000 to $32,000 cost on a HP 525.
And Randy is right too. Hard work, a good boat and most importantly the people in it will be the determining factor on podium finishes.
J
08-29-2003, 05:10 AM
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There is too much rumor and innuendo. Next time someone says the HP525 makes 700hp, and the 496 can be brought to 695 by switching a chip.
Innovation/CRE have all the Dyno sheets for all the engines. Let's see some facts.
Personally, I'm delighted that my engine gains power from reading OSO. But I'd like to see some facts.
PS: Read this thread, post #12 : http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/s...threadid=57864
IMO, those 4 paragraphs are the best that has ever been said or written about that topic in a very long time.
Innovation/CRE have all the Dyno sheets for all the engines. Let's see some facts.
Personally, I'm delighted that my engine gains power from reading OSO. But I'd like to see some facts.
PS: Read this thread, post #12 : http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/s...threadid=57864
IMO, those 4 paragraphs are the best that has ever been said or written about that topic in a very long time.
Last edited by Peconic; 08-29-2003 at 05:15 AM.
08-29-2003, 07:08 AM
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humm...our boat has NEVER been in front when the green flag drops! we were 4th to the first pint in milwaukee!...3rd in daytona...personally as it stands the 500 boats HAVE the advantage! AND the results reflect this....as well as the kilo records!!!
08-29-2003, 07:58 AM
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All this said, at the end of the day the consensus seems to be one engine/outdrive combination = one less variable in the mix. Four different engines means invariably someone will have an advantage other than skill and homework.
If that is true then would you rather support a package that comes with sponsorship or one that does not? The only package backed by a sponsor, so far, is 496 in some form. I think we need more information on this, but it does offer some interesting possibilities.
The last peice of the puzzle will be weight. As I said in another post:
1) Do you make all the boats weigh the same, say 4600#, regardless of size (size dosen't matter)?
2) Do you add weight to the smaller boats, opposite of what we have now, to handicap for size (size matters)?
3) Do you let the boats race at whatever they weigh when fully rigged to race.
More interesting dilemmas.
Allen
If that is true then would you rather support a package that comes with sponsorship or one that does not? The only package backed by a sponsor, so far, is 496 in some form. I think we need more information on this, but it does offer some interesting possibilities.
The last peice of the puzzle will be weight. As I said in another post:
1) Do you make all the boats weigh the same, say 4600#, regardless of size (size dosen't matter)?
2) Do you add weight to the smaller boats, opposite of what we have now, to handicap for size (size matters)?
3) Do you let the boats race at whatever they weigh when fully rigged to race.
More interesting dilemmas.
Allen
08-29-2003, 10:28 AM
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Folks, be careful of what you wish for, you may get it.
One engine, one drive means: One engine, one drive.
And if it's a new engine, that means that everybody will have to buy a new engine and a new drive. Understood?
There is no reason for going to one engine, and one drive, if older engines are grandfathered-in with weight penalties and what have you. If that starts, then you might as well forget one engine, one drive.
If Mercury wants to go public with that hopped-up 496, go for it. If they already scheduled a release for that beast, go for it. A little bit less hp for a lot less $$$$$: By all means, go for it.
If that hopped-up 496 is just a dream, or an idea, if it's for racers only, then forget it. It won't be ready for the next season or it will be full of bugs. If Joe Shmoe can't buy it, then why call the thing Factory.
If cost is a factor, and if that hopped-up 496 isn't already in the final stages of testing, then how about this:
2004ff: One engin, one drive, HP525 & XR.
Merc makes the HP525 available to all 2004 APBA F1 participants at a $10K rebate. (Or thereabouts.) You must run all 2004 Pro Series races to qualify for the discount.
- The hottest engine
- At an affordable price
- Guaranteed attendance
- Incremental HP525 sales
One engine, one drive means: One engine, one drive.
And if it's a new engine, that means that everybody will have to buy a new engine and a new drive. Understood?
There is no reason for going to one engine, and one drive, if older engines are grandfathered-in with weight penalties and what have you. If that starts, then you might as well forget one engine, one drive.
If Mercury wants to go public with that hopped-up 496, go for it. If they already scheduled a release for that beast, go for it. A little bit less hp for a lot less $$$$$: By all means, go for it.
If that hopped-up 496 is just a dream, or an idea, if it's for racers only, then forget it. It won't be ready for the next season or it will be full of bugs. If Joe Shmoe can't buy it, then why call the thing Factory.
If cost is a factor, and if that hopped-up 496 isn't already in the final stages of testing, then how about this:
2004ff: One engin, one drive, HP525 & XR.
Merc makes the HP525 available to all 2004 APBA F1 participants at a $10K rebate. (Or thereabouts.) You must run all 2004 Pro Series races to qualify for the discount.
- The hottest engine
- At an affordable price
- Guaranteed attendance
- Incremental HP525 sales
Last edited by Peconic; 08-29-2003 at 10:32 AM.
08-29-2003, 04:35 PM
#20
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Come to think of it, you've got to blame APBA for this whole mess. Had they left things alone for a couple years, you F1 guys wouldn't have to be wasting your time posting on this subject. Imagine that the HP500EFI was still the only engine allowed. Those with the carb version would be allowed to run lighter. The new engines (525 and HP3) could have gone through their teething timeframe say in P Class or SVL or SV.
It is obvious that the whole concept of Factory racing has gone awry. It was supposed to be entry level racing for those on a limited budget. Now, you've got to make all of these educated guesses on what am I going to run for power and drive and gee I just bought a new HP500 last year and damn it and Blah Blah Blah and Aw, screw it I won't race because I can't afford a new 525 and so forth.
So there goes one of the best classes APBA ever developed because somebody or a group of somebodies who don't even race Factory class, decide to try to make some corporate giant/giants happy at your, THE RACERS, expense.
One last question, "How much longer will the 502 based block be available"?
Is the 496/8.1 motor the smartest direction to go? Seems to me that this block/base motor will be around longer than the 502. It's up to the manufacturers (Mercury and GM) to be honest with the information.
I like the idea of running the "Plain Jane" Bravo outdrive.
There, you have another cost savings.
Now we're heading in the right direction.
It is obvious that the whole concept of Factory racing has gone awry. It was supposed to be entry level racing for those on a limited budget. Now, you've got to make all of these educated guesses on what am I going to run for power and drive and gee I just bought a new HP500 last year and damn it and Blah Blah Blah and Aw, screw it I won't race because I can't afford a new 525 and so forth.
So there goes one of the best classes APBA ever developed because somebody or a group of somebodies who don't even race Factory class, decide to try to make some corporate giant/giants happy at your, THE RACERS, expense.
One last question, "How much longer will the 502 based block be available"?
Is the 496/8.1 motor the smartest direction to go? Seems to me that this block/base motor will be around longer than the 502. It's up to the manufacturers (Mercury and GM) to be honest with the information.
I like the idea of running the "Plain Jane" Bravo outdrive.
There, you have another cost savings.
Now we're heading in the right direction.
