your right with that point about the cheating eddie,but if we can get mike or steve to commit to help us until we can get the #'s up,we can use the lower cost dyno and get these motors cheaper,and still use one dyno on them,even if its ten motors,I'll help with the time for nothin!

I like it. Let the exhaust be completely open to any manufacture- that will bring in more potential sponsors.

Let there be a claiming rule on the 1,2,3 place winners engines. That is say for $5000 any lower place finisher may claim/buy the 1,2,3 place winners engine. If you win and you keep it stock you have nothing to lose except an instant sold used raced engine.

In F1 why not run any manufactures single engine hull- V, Cat, Bat, etc. They all have their own advantages- V-rough water, V-turning, cat-flat, bat-jack of all. Hull just must be documented from manufacture as 'production' and not one off light race version.

Al,

Call Steve today to discuss the technical details with him. The bottomline is that the engine will work. The internals are not dissimilar from the HP3. Steve has the data and access to more.

I hate to keep harping on this subject but we also need to keep the need for operating capital at the forefront so we can keep the program going like it has been. We need to keep GM, TV, etc. at the levels we have in order to capitalize on our momentum.

And the divisional series NEED us to have a strong national series to help them grow. I have spoken to some of the divisional series leaders in the last few days and they readily acknowledge how important it is to them for us to remain strong.

We are going to schedule a meeting in St. Pete to discuss the new professional membership and equity investment opportunities for sometime in the next few weeks.

Mike

I'll call steve later,is it possible to grow our T.V.programming to a better promotor and get some other channels involved,maybe something with ABC,NBC,isnt there some type of programming we can get with to air on national TV instead of just speedchannel,hell,if ABC can make money off air time for the brady buches christmas 4 times in the last to months,I think we could be more attractive,boat racing is alot more intersesting than womens golf!those women are old,fat and ugly!

and I dont think mother merc selling more motors to have the need to purchase more from GM is going to hurt anyone,these are platform engines directly built on GM's production line!we just need to get our boat count back up,and the promotors back in the pits and that should help with the capitol problems for TV and promotions,maybe we just need to step back and punt before the ball gets intercepted and we lose the game!

:rolleyes:

1.bring down the speeds...u-gota be kidding me! they are underpowered as it is...i should say OVERWEIGHT!less power=less control...the 2 WORLD(STILL ARE) record F2 boats where BUILT WHEN!!!???

2. people would like to see ALL the boats closer in speeds???...EVEN for those that DO NOT want to do their homework!?...your going to have guys that have no biz in a race boat rubbing rails in a HOBBY motorsport...this means more $$ in repairs.

3.is Formula still crying "their too fast"??? the must be the next series F2 sponsor?

4. i would not buy this engine for a pleasure boat or a poker run boat...maybe a fishing boat!...so why the hell would i want it in my RACE BOAT?

5. no sportmaster cases???...i thought through your "extensive" testing you found these to be so much better and safer???

6. CAN I PLEASE GET MY PRIZE MONEY AND TROPHIES FROM 2003!!???? ORL/APBA LLC/MIKE A.,,,whatever it is this month WOULD LIKE MY 5k TO BE A "PRO"....how about step up, be a "professional" yourself, and do what you say you were going to!???

7. it's really is funny how FORD and other companies sponsor OTHER forms of racing that use engines that are from WAY before my time,,,STILL....Need an example...Star Mazda series...15 YEARS!same drive-train!...it's TOTAL BS that we have to have CURRENT engines...especially when some are BUYING THEM at RETAIL!

8...REMEMBER THIS...we have problems getting racers that HAVE CURRENT equipment, the means of racing, and the desire to do so already here in the US!...WHY ARE THEY NOT RACING???....wana fresh green batch??? it sure was a lot easier to do so 5-10 years ago,,,,WITH OUT THE INTERNET...WITH OUT THAT REAL-TIME INFORMATION wazn't it!!!???

"And the divisional series NEED us to have a strong national series to help them grow"

i think the regionals will be stronger than ever this year...hummm,,,some divisionals had a better turnout than either "world championship" did!

Al,

Yes, I believe we can one day get some network television coverage of the sport. I would not have spent the last 5 years of my life and a huge portion of my wealth - such as it was - on all of this if I did not believe this in my heart.

But, if we lose GM and/or our television product decreases one bit in 2004 then we will be set back so far I doubt if any one of us will be around when the sport recovers.

This is very important to remember so I am going to capitalize it for emphasis:

THE PROFESSIONAL MEMBERSHIP PROGRAM IS NOT A PERMANENT SOLUTION. THINK OF IT AS A KIND OF BRIDGE FINANCING TO GET US FROM HERE TO BACK ON TRACK. IF WE CAN SECURE 50-60 TEAMS THEN WE HAVE SEVERAL INDIVIDUALS READY TO INVEST $50,000 EACH AS AN EQUITY INVESTMENT. WITH THAT WE CAN FLY INTO 2004, REGAIN OUR MOMENTUM AND SET UP FOR A HUUUUUUUUUGE 2005 AND BEYOND.

There. I said it.

Mike

JOEY TELL US HOW YOU REALLY FEEL!!!!!

joey,your right about the speeds,for long courses,not for the fans,for stadium racing there to fast,short courses lots of turns,fans are happy they can see the race=more sponsors and associations needing less money from us and more money to us!then they can pay prize money without arguing!

Joe,

You reap what you sow. You have run your mouth, run us down, acted like an immature punk and cried like a !@#$!@$@#$ girl. What we said was show up in Orange Beach and you would get paid. Those who showed up got paid and those who did not will simply have to wait.

I spent my money the past 5 years on boatracing so others could race and have a good time. Yes, I did it voluntarily and with an expectation down the road that my investment would pay off, so I am not complaining.

I do not personally owe you a !@$#@#%@#$ dime. Yes, the LLC has some obligations that it is behind on and the owners are doing the best they can to see to it that the obligations are honored. The LLC was drawn into major litigation that it neither asked for nor wanted. The LLC watched as one of its major sponsors refused to pay $95,000 in sponsorship money for no reason. The LLC watched as a group of its members boycotted it causing at least $150,000 in lost revenue at the end of the year.

So you will excuse us while we fight for our lives.

In the meantime, your analysis of the situation regarding Factory class is simply wrong. The boats need to go faster?? Joe, if you feel that way I suggest you try to cut a deal with Donzi to add canopies to your boat and go racing SV.

Mike

ya but mike,cut the costs and secure 120 teams,they are out there,I already talked to an equipment owner this morning and got his attention,that boats been sitting for two years and could be ready to race factory in two hrs with the new package!the more money,the less teams,the more teams,the more publicity!If you can get that kinda sponsorship with 60 teams,cut the costs back on us and double the teams and triple the sponsorships and individual company advertising,it worked before,it even had more television programming,I used to watch your boat on ESPN!

Joey,

You are also wrong about the divisional series. We had 57 boats at our Worlds which was terrible for us but there was not a single divisional race in the country last year that had that many boats.

And if you think that divisional racing is going to benefit in the long term by what is happening then I got some swamp land to show you.

You are upset because your racing program ran out of money and a change of this nature might, in your mind, obsolete your boat. My best assessment is that a change like this will make your boat more valuable as a race boat to a new team looking to get into the sport.

Mike

50 or 60 teams were not at the LLC world championships....your expecting more teams to come forth to pony up 5K for a "BRIDGE FINANCING" fix??


PS...can i get my prize money and trophies this year??

Al,

I meant 50-60 Professional Member Teams.

Like it or not, to do things that need to be done there needs to be enough operating capital to start. We cannot base our decisions on the "expectation" that our plan will work. And for the reasons I have explained in the past, the LLC owners are not willing to fund this out of their own pockets anymore, or at least until we know for sure that the fighting, stealing, boycotting has stopped for good.

Nevertheless, if you look at the Professional Membership program, you can see how the money actually gets paid back to the Professional Members through prize money and high points money if we execute the business plan successfully.

We are going to have to run parallel tracks here. Fix Factory class but get the Pro Membership buy-in so we can secure the additional equity investment necessary to keeping the train rolling.

Mike

Joey,

If your intention is to simply stand on the side of the road and yell and scream at us, stomp your feet and hold your breath, then fine. I simply will have to ignore you because we need to get some things done to save the sport and our investments in it.

You should have received your trophy and if not then call Deanna at the office. The prize money will likely not be forthcoming this year. I am sorry but hopeful that situaiton can be rectified shortly.

Mike

the boat is up for sale...we are going to run another class if anything...

WHAT I AM UPSET ABOUT is; you would like more money from us when we STILL HAVE NOT been paid or received trophies from 2003! IT SEEMS TOTALLY RIDICULOUS THAT I WOULD GIVE YOU/APBA-LLC,ORL, WHATEVER MORE $$ WHEN YOU OWE ME!!!

LET ME ADD that there NO teams contacting me about racing! A TON about poker runs...so whatever you come up this month for rules/requirements for F2 will not affect the sale of the boat.

i have contacted that office MANY times about where to send the trophies and $$!...EVEN requested additional trophies, for my crew, that I WILL pay for!

mike a. you keep talking about us giving you 5k so there is prize money, tv, and points for 2004...you still owe us from 2003...this sounds like a credit card that gives you as much credit as you deposit in their bank!!LOL

Sorry Singlegirl,

The gloves are off and the high road is a distant memory. Moronic comments like that are transparent to everyone here who gets it.

The bottomline is that this program works without needing to trust me.

The Professional Membership Fees are deposited into an account controlled by the Professional Membership themselves. It does not go to me and it is not mine to use. That is in writing too or can't you read?

Not a single penny of the equity investors money goes to me either. I am giving up a huge share of my ownership interest for NOTHING. All the money goes to the sport.

So say what you want. Piss, moan, whine, cry, call me names. Whatever.

When I was a prosecutor I remember getting jeered by the inmates whenever I walked through the jail to talk to witnesses. I remember laughing inside while considering the source.

That is basically the way I view you, the boycotters and others who want to run their mouths, lie, steal, and throw crap all over the sport while doing absolutely nothing other than using up our oxygen. So enjoy.

This thread is about Factory 1 and 2 racing. Dredge, can you please ensure it stays that way. If any of you want to call me names then send me nasty emails like so many others are. I read and respond to them all.

Mike

So Joey,

Then shut your pie hole and move on already. You have said your piece and expressed yourself clearly. Read my post to Singlechick about the use of the money.

The beauty part of this is you do not have to invest a single penny if you do not want to and the rest of the racers are smart enough to assess the situation and decide for themselves.

Mike

i really want to race boats, always have! can't really remember a time where i have not, with the exception of 2003.... i WILL race something, somewhere...but i am not going to throw good money at bad!

your "in writing" 2003 talks about prize money and trophies...so what has "in writing" done for us in 2003??? 2004's "in writing" is different??

"So Joey, Then shut your pie hole and move on already"

have i ever disrespected you like this? NO

SINGLESTACK,
WHY DON'T YOU STAY THE **** OUT OF THE DISCUSSION. WE ALL KNOW WHO IS WHO,EXCEPT YOU. JOEY AND MIKE HAVE ISSUE TO DISCUSS LET THEM. YOU ARE THE ONE REASON THAT THERE IS A WETPITS. BACK TO THE ORIGANAL PROGRAMMING.

P.S GO FIND YOUR BALLS BECAUSE YOU HAVE NONE,IF YOU DID YOU BE CONSTRUCTIVE AND NOT POST STUPID ONE LINERS AND TELL WHO YOU ARE.

mike,are you only going to consider the "pro teams" the ones that take part in the 5 grand for the bridge financing?

MIKEA ,
I KNOW THIS IS OFF TOPIC,BUT IS UNIFACATION OUT OF THE QUESTION. SBI HAS THE SITES AND YOU HAVE THE RULES AND BOAT COUNT. JOHN IS STUBORN,BUT IT COULD WORK.

Yo Scott, If I am not mistaken, there was an attempt to bring both parties together but it was in vane. Those who know of the meeting, know what Im talking about. Apparently, it was all one sided. And all involved parted without a handshake.

Mr Miklos, How are you?

So, are you saying that for a boat to be competitive in F-1 w/ the 496HO, it would need to be stepped?

Steve,
Thanks for jumping in with your input....

GUYS.....This post was for the F- class asking for help from LLC to bring us toghther....and if you read the first 2 pages thats what its about....and their is 90% possitive input....and its in a public forum and its showing we can talk about things and ask questions...I'm sure the racers and LLC would like to keep it that way...if you want a Bit$h about something start a new post....you want racers to stay on OSO and hear whats going on .....great..thats what LLC and the racers our doing for this class...so please alot of us have alot invested in this......
Mike,
If you have any type of meetings were the racers can sit and even listen on whats going on...weather in St. Pete or anywhere let me know I would like to flyin and listen.....
B.C thats for you input....
Al...like I said on the phone you have some great input and as a Mercury dealer trying to helpout in any way...
We all said we wanted to support Steve for having OSO...lets also respect the guys who are willing to speak up in hear to.....

Gino

Mike, very well said. Anyone can call you and ask all this on the telephone without all the BS or like we did in Milwaukee, eye to eye, honesty.Don't let it get you down. Augie

Gino your right 1/2 right...my point has to do with; 500's in, 525 in...GM's in, 525's are out, 496's are in...back out, 2004 rules same 525's/gm's stay...no, lets talk about changing to 496...make a. out...gordon k. in...gordon out..mike a. back in...6 blades in...no out...now back in....man it's never ending!!! the change and turnover of racers in the motorsport is crazy...address WHY THAT IS??? AND THEN you may be looking in the right direction of where this motorsport needs to go to be "NASCAR on the water"!!!

PS:Gino, did you get into the Hall of Fame...done deal or what??

Joey,
I not saying you have not been talking about the 525 and the 500....personnally I would like to hear from all the racers the race F-Class..thats what this is all about....so all the teams can deside were to race....thats all....I said in my reply if guys are not racing in 2004 in F-class or not thinking of doing it let the teams talk that are going to..thats all...
As far as the Hall of Champions...its handled and Mark and I are looking foward to it....

Mike

I am confused

when we put on our race this year had i told the participants

"if you show up at the next race you will get your money and trophy for this race"

i think we would have been hung

had i expected anyone to walk away without either the trophy or money our credibility would have been toast

If i told them "i didn't get money from my sponsor so you will not be getting yours" the response would have been, and should have been "so? how does that effect me??"

I once had a customer tell me that even though i provided parts to his company that he had requested from us (with a PO) that he couldn't pay us because General Motors (his customer)hadn't payed him

SO? GM wasn't my customer. He was!! why would that effect me

Joe deserves his money for his placing
and i am sure that had he said to your people\

"I will pay my entry fee when my sponsors pay us" you would have told him to hit the road

you have talked of integrity in the sport I think that has to start HERE and do the right thing by Joe's team

and these statements by you are interesting

"You reap what you sow. You have run your mouth, run us down, acted like an immature punk and cried like a !@#$!@$@#$ girl." and

"Then shut your pie hole and move on already"

Don't you think THAT is immature?? and unproductive??

I don't think there was a prior requirement that you had to attend Orange Beach to get prizes and trophies from another race you entered that year was there??


again just trying to understand not trying to be argumentative

Marc

we are working on sponsorship/program for 2004...1st plan is to sell F2-21 and run another class that phil and i wanted to run prior to the DONZI....plan 2 is really one and the same as the 1st priority, we need to sell F2-21. the 3rd plan is really easy, race what we have! keep existing sponsors and add to them for 2004....right now there is A LOT of questions going on...adding to them IMO is not the answer...as it stands,,,mike a. is correct on this one, i am on the side lines watching to see what happens...i am not about to add another sponsor, take the money, make promises. the sponsorship was for ONLY 3 races on the "in writing" schedule !. paying them back them back in full after the KW worlds was canceled was not fun!

Steve M. or Mike A.,
Some of the guys are concern of the realiability of the 496...some F1 guys have run it and said it had problems....can we shed some light alittle on the engine....if something gose wrong in the first couple of races or do you see any problems and if so what can we do.....I think it may help a few F1 teams....
Thanks
Gino

I've sat her reading this thread with great interest, and have to tell y'all, I was really impressed...
right up until the last page.
Joey, the reason for this thread was for the discussion of the future of Factory class. It came about because everyone wanted one motor, one weight, one drive. Only problem was, some of us wanted OUR motor to be the one motor that was chosen. Bottom line was, everyone wanted changes, and wanted them now. APBA Offshore is doing exactly what we've been asking them to do, again. If you disagree with the one motor being discussed, I would be interested in hearing why, and what your suggestion would be. Otherwise, why don't you and Mike step out back and handle it out of the publics view.
I can't believe I'm going to type this, but I'm impressed with Outer42's responses. Dude, you really can have an open mind! Finally!
I for one appreciate it.
In fact, it does my heart good to see guys like you and Frank asking straight questions and getting straight answers. No more bullchit and rumors on both sides getting thrown around. NOW were cookin!
Ok, While I was all for a 496 based motor I wasn't for going to Mother Mercury to get it. However, I do see many advantages to the idea. Fact is, the HP500 wasn't the handbuilt racing engine that Mercury Racing would lead us to believe. The short block of the 496Mag H.O. is probably as strong or stronger than the HP500's 502 shortblock. A couple of Factory class racers have said they wanted a motor that was unique to APBA racing, kind of like the HP500's had the fancy valve covers. Something like that would be cool, but would also just add to the cost. Still, a "Competition Series" motor may be something for Mother Mercury to consider??.
As for the suggestion of more than just Innovation being allowed to seal the Factory motors, We used to have something like 14 different places all over the nation. A couple of them were somehow getting WAY more HP and torque from their "stock?" HP500's than any of the other certified rebuilders. We wanted fair racing and equal engines, so the only answer was to go to one rebuilder. CRE was formed, and the rebuilding/sealing process has worked without question. If we could find a way for 2 or 3 rebuilders to handle this while still keeping equal tollerances across the board, I'd be all for it, but you'd have to prove to me that they would be fair and equal. It will be a hard sell.
Personally, I'm all for the changes as they were stated by Mike and Steve. I'm not sure I agree with the "one weight" but It's a huge step in the right direction that also opens the class to new teams.

Marc, put on a really good race in my home town...i grew up there washing race boats as a kid, DREAMING...our team was unable to race in GH in 2003. for numerous reasons that i was totally up front with Marc and his better looking 1/2.

We did cover his/her's smoke on the water poker run! ever aspect of the even was a success, even when the weather was less than cooperative! We NEED more race promoters like Marc....you get exactly what you expect and maybe more from him!

MIKE A,
YOU DON'T HAVE TO GET ME ANYTHING THANKS ANYWAY,MAYBE A SET OF STERLINGS 1450 WOULD BE NICE THOUGH.

Thanks Mike,
And I know this is going to freak some people out when they read it......
Happy Holidays Mike and Steve!!!! and thanks for the help....
Gino

mike,

so if we do all this, ( wich sounds real good ) you should also stay with four blade props only. this will also eliminate a lot of cost.

Treadwell

joe,

shutup for once, would you. the **** is over. it's time to rebuild whats left. you are last on the list and will stay there for a while. if you show up and are ready to race i am more then sure you wil be taken care of.

Treadwell