This thread is certainly going in the right direction and I believe it will bring a hell of alot more boats out to play.
I, for one was saving to move up to SVL, but maybe I'll give F-1 a try. Im sure there are others thinking the same.

i am ready to race tread..just about anything for that matter!....anyway...

is it too much to ask of people to do what they say they are going to do?

tead,,, you have paid your 5k already?? who was the check made out to?

As a FAN of offshore racing this year, I came to this conclusion. Lids on boats are great for the racer(safety) but not for the fan. You can't associate with a team in a canopy. I would rather see two people running in a Factory-1 or Factory 2 boat where I can see two orange helmets on two people that I can see running the same kind of boat that I have. Running Factory boats 75-85mph with a 496 is a better option than putting lids on everyone. Super-v and super-v lite were of no interest to me on T.V. this year. As a racer I could appreciate the competition in super-v but as a fan it was not that interesting. The average fan must be able to relate to what is going on. What I'm trying to say is A 496 PACKAGE THAT IS MORE AFFORDABLE TO THE AVERAGE JOE MAKES SENSE TO ME. This could bring a large # of Factory boats back to the table and more importantly bring new blood in. Many P-4 and 5 boats could buy a new engine package and we could have 20 boats racing against each other. Just my thoughts.

We are not accepting checks yet. We are working on the concept even more as we seapk. We have quite a bit of interest and several commitments. I am seeking permission to publish names and anyone who wishes to vountarily annouce their commitment, subject to finalization of the program, feel free to do so.

We have 14 firm now. The target is 50 plus no more than 5 equity investors.

Mike

Well Mike I new some people would not like me saying Happy Holidays to you and Steve.......I was accused of carrying your banner and making a fool of myself for listening to you becasue this is all a trick....so I was told I was a thorn in the F1's back....so I'm in no matter what.. even if their are only 3 or 4 boats...hell even If I have to bring out the Fountain.....count me in...its time for more then you to sink or swim....and I'm ready to swim....

Tred,
Good to se you on here...asking questions...

It's amazing what can be done when people communicate with each other.

Good work fellas!

The bigger boats do not need to be penalized by adding weight. Pantera and my 28 is basically a non stepped boat. The smaller 7ft beams run great in the rough or flat. Fast Eddie needs some weight reduction too. Bigger boats do not need extra weight! BH

Brain,
Mike agreed with that....said the wieght could be around 4550 to 4650lbs for everyone I think that would make the bigger boats like yours Eddie and the Warlocks faster....
BJ....can you say Fountain......
Gino

I beleive we had the largest divisional race in 2003 with 44 or so boats, so the Worlds certainly were larger. We all need to get together for a meeting somewhere Face to Face - and check our egos at the door.

I think 5 year locks on the rules for all the classes would solve a lot of these issues.

Well I have access to a great facility in Daytona Beach for a meeting. We could have the room all to ourselves until 3 pm, then the girls show up for work. ......

I like your facility
 

:p :p :p

mike,

need and answer on the props. plus how is this for f2. a straight weight of 8000 lbs accross the board.

well mike it looks like we are are ready. looks like you have your supporters. so lets make deciscions in the next week or two so we can have our boats ready.

Treadwell

Daytona is perfect for me - anytime! I also have a few extra bedrooms beachside for you guy's. Let's do this! BH

"Merry Christmas even you Gino!"

Even on the West Coast we can feel the love.

:)

Thanks Steve,
d-law....I think I left about $1,000 their in April....or maybe thats what I spent...either way say when and I'm their....
Well said Jim....

Mike,
I don't know how many feel that way.....so I won't speculate....but I could not get answers about the same issues for long enough and the way the e-mail reads It sure sounds like abunch will be racing somewhere else....from some....but I have been told by alot of others they will not go that way....so I'm going to take a stand and say I will race APBA....especially when I'm told I look like a fool for carrying the APBA banner....and I like what I'm seeing here......I will save the e-mails so I'm not called a lier......
I'm seeing whats going on with some of the SVL's and some of the F1's and its not what we all agreed.....
Tred. has a good question about props. would it be open for 4 and 5 blades or be current to the prop rules as of now.....
Gino

Much like Mike A.'s idea of a cash infusion into the sport.... I would like to point out that any cash spent at the club will directly benefit the sport as well in the form of racing capital for the team and in the total satisfaction you will have when leaving. This is truly a win/win situation where unification is the goal!!!

Gino and Tread,

The first draft of the rules limit props to 4 blades. You do not want to complicate the class for new teams. When we first started in F1 we threw the same blade 25" on for every race. We never should have allowed the prop rules to get out of control. KISS = keep it simple stupid. I suggest you keep it simple but at the end of the day it will be the owners' choice. Tell us what you all want and we will write the rules.

As for what the rookies are doing with their private emails and private agendas here is what I say: screw them. Let them leave as we have decided to do with the Boycotters. The case against stealing our rules, classes, venues and series names has been made perfectly clear. If they refuse to see it we should not want them around. I certainly do not.

We should concern ourselves more with the guys who have been racing longer - real racers not guys who quit because they refuse to put the work in to get better or cannot guarantee themselves a first place every time out. They are NOT racers and never will be. You, Randy, Glen, BC, Hollis, the Legouris, Mark, Gordo, et. al. You boys are racers. So let's go race.

When we created our competition based rules model we did so with the confidence that if we built it they would come. Well, we are confident that if you guys say go on this, new and old racers will come. Focus on that. Trying to make 525's and 500's work is a failed formula now so let these guys go off and do it if they want.

There are plenty of racers out there and we already have many of them. So does SBI and OPA. We need to concentrate on bringing them to the sport. Give us the word and we will do it. Hell, we will offer it to John too if he wants it. Just say HELL NO TO OSS!

Mike

Agreed.

Hey guys,

I am glad to see everyone working together to better F1 and F2 classes.

As a Manufacture I am all for bringing more boats and manufactures back in to Factory class racing like years past and we will support the class and its racers.

I have been a past racer in F1 and this past season in F2.

I remember in the mid 90s running in A-class in a 28' powered by a 600 HP motor and racing with 18 other A -class boats at the Miami APBA national in 2 footers running well into the mid 80s.There was a few 26' Corsas, 26' Velocity, 28' Powerplay, Scorpion 24 , and myself in a 28' Pantera.By the time we got to the first turn we had sufficient distance to seperate from each other a bit. In A-class at the time I believe there was no team running stepped bottom boats.We would come into Goverment cut where the fans would have great viewing and back out along the beach in a coarse that I believe was approximately 8 miles long total.

I think with the evolution of Stepped bottom boats,the very tight competition ( which I am all for ) and with new shorter coarses with many turns has brought a new challenge to the racers.It seems to me and (maybe I am wrong) that the majority of the accidents occur in the turns not in the straight aways at high speeds.

I just feel that by slowing F2 boats from the low to mid 90s down to 85 MPH range and the F1 down to 78 MPH range is not the only solution for safety that needs to be looked at. It seems to me that there are less accidents when its rough than when its calm water.I think the rough water allows the boats to seperate a bit from each other and causes teams not to turn at such high speeds.I think if we would have a longer coarse with not as many turns you would not have as many spinouts and boats running into each other.

I know the shorter coarses are more fan friendly and by no means am I telling Mike A. how to run its race coarse format, I am just trying to put my 2 cents worth.I will race in any coarse that is put together and deal with it.I am just offering an opinion.

I hope to be back racing in F2 in 2004 and would like to see more manufactures come back and race and support the F1 and F2 classes.

I agree with BJ that the Factory classes allow the fans to relate to the boats they can purchase from a manufacture than a canopied boat.

Do I think a canopied boat is safer than a non canopied boat of coarse I do, but maybe we should try to avoid having less accidents in general whether you are in a canopied boat or not.That would reduce costs for everyone.

Have a Merry Christmas and Happy New year,

Jo-Pantera Boats F2-71



:)

Thanks for the input Jo. You are right about most of the accidents occurring in the corners. Frankly, teams need to simply slow down in the corners. Remember the old saying that in order to finish first, first you have to finish.

Jo, what are your thoughts on the 496HO package for Factory class?

Mike

Hi Mike,

I think the 496 HOs would reduce the costs on maintanence: (for example on the drives and gimballs) and would allow manufactures to produce a competetive F1 or F2 race boat at lower costs for customers looking to get into Factory class racing.Bottom line I will support it.

I think it is important to make the change from the 525 or 500 EFis as easy as possible.For example the boat we built this year for F2 has Sportmaster Bravo 1 drives which have shorty lowers.If you change to a standard Bravo 1 lower we would need to re-glass the transom and start all over.For us being a manufacture it would require quite a bit of work than just dropping in a pair of 496 HOs.For a customer racing now in the F2 class it would require them to invest even more time and money to make these changes. So I feel if we could just try and make the transition to the 496 HO motor without having to change around the drives allowed this past year it would make the transition that much easier for everyone.

I just feel that by slowing for example the F2 boats from going in a straight away at 85 MPH instead of 92-93 MPH in flat water conditions into a tight turn with a bunch of boats running side by side (might not) reduce the chance much for spin outs and accidents to happen. Maybe I am wrong. It just seems to me that the higher speeds in F1 and F2 now which in average have increased by 4-5 MPH from a few years ago have not been the only cause of the spin outs and boats running into each other.

Like I said before I will race in any coarse you guys decide to put together I am just offering my input.

Have a Merry Christmas Mike and I will hopefully be racing again with you guys in 2004.

By the way: It is hard to slow down and give up valuable time and position in the turns because in the Factory classes it is very hard to make the distance back up.It seems like there are many good teams going for it and I like that.I just want to increase the safety for all of us in the sport.

Regards,

JO

jo, these are very good points you bring up.It is good to hear input from a racer and manufacture.

Jo,
Its good to hear from you again..as a racer and a manufacture on your pionts and I would thinK the other manufactures would agree with you 100%.....

Mike,
I would have to agree with you....I have made it this far with you and APBA ....and from were this post started, from the F1 teams, I think their are more then just 2 or 3 teams that are going this way....along with the teams that read this but don't post...and I respect them if they don't want to....but with the support from the guys you see here.....and some long time racers like Tred., Jo, BC,BJ and others these are die hard races....and some new teams along with other racers that are looking at the Factory class plus the P class guys and the big boys including the SVL teams....I would have to say in the last few days since you and Steve M. have spoken the tide has change some if not alot.....I think your family is standing up and supporting you......and I might be wrong.....but I think they have decided to swim with you and Steve and the rest of the LLC members.......

I guess I could add this to one of my gifts for X-MAS....a chance for us to talk and stick together and race till the end..........DAMM DOG IS TYPING ON THE COMPUTER AGAIN.....LUTE D. GET YOUR DAMM DOG OUT OF MY HOUSE!!!!!

Gino

Gino,

$1000.00- that must have been a BIG Girl for you to spend that much!!! HA HA-

Chrissy

Everyone,

Just remember that these rules are yours. Steve and I do not want to dictate anything to you. Again, he and I are volunuteers now but we will offer our advice and assistance so you can end up in the best possible place.

In that regard I think Jo might be right about the drives issue but we need to hear from more of you before we make the change. BTW - has anyone looked at the rules we posted?

Based on emails I have received I am confident this program will work extremely well. Many boats will convert right away, others we have not seen in awhile are going to brush off and come back, and new boats will be built and enter the fray.

We will talk to John to see if he is interested in the class and if so we will work something out so SBI can run it as well.

Mike

Hey Chris Reindl,

Are you putting on 2 races this year ??

Are they GLSCS?? ,APBA??, OSS??

I heard one in Cincinnati and one in Louisville

have these been set in stone yet ??

What are the dates ???

the Cincinnati race going to be same place as last year or moving toward town ??

Chris,

we had 41 boats at the GH race this year

the rules have changed for ORL...but have they changed for the GLSCS???Marc??...

NO 5 or 6 blades for 2004 in factory classes!...so much for technology! why not just go back to 3 blades since we got this class in reverse anyway!?

JOE HOW ABOUT TWO BLADES AND 5000HP,THOSE GUYS ARE NUTS.

MIKE A
I agree with the 496 engine choice. Slow the F-1 & F-2 classes don, make it more affordable and safer for the racers and their families. Brian and I fot out of F-1 ( F1-15 Team Aquadisiac ) and went to pokerruns because too many people were getting hurt and/or killed. If we slow the boats down mabe you'll see us back racing F-1 again. For us Canadians we also need someone in Canada to seal the engines. WE can't afford to send our engines to Innovation for service if we have a problem. Maybe you could give Raymond Roberts at Double R Performancea a call and see if he would be interested in sealing the engines for ABPA. He can be reached at 1-705-487-7575 or faxed at 1-705-487-5993.

Take care and Have a Merry Christmas

Kevin Adams

Joey,

I'm sure your talking about the proposal, not the actual propeller rules which have not changed.

5. Approved Propellers - Cast propellers must be approved by APBA. Three and four blade cast propellers manufactured Mercury, Hering and Hydromotive, five blade cast propellers by Hydromotive and Hering and six blade cast propellers by Hering are approved. Other manufacturers of cast propellers may apply to APBA for approval based on the following criteria:

Jim

why do people keep saying factory racing (II) is "getting" too fast...the speed ware boat and the old utz(aka harwich concrete) STILL hold both the kilo records and have more podium boats finishes that any other F2 boat...AND when were those boats built???...by the way, speed ware still uses the 500hp carb'ed engines.

generally when people think or racing, they don't really think of it as a safe practice!

one more thing, everyone that has complained about the safety of these boats, i'm sure i could find that they have made their boat 100% safe as possible...seats that go over the top of your legs,everything properly padded, covered, great footing placement??... it's a long list!...AND i am sure they choose the very best safety equipment out there too??

Jim, i take it you have not read the "new" rules this week??...there are no provision for the use of anything with more than 4 blades...OR have i missed something??

Joe ,

you know that the GLSCS is no longer APBA affiliated ???

There rules i havent a clue about at this point

I am not sure they have there scheduale put together for this year

The GLSCS web site has been almost as inactive as APBA web site latley

Must be the time of year

yeah, i did...but, i did not know if anyone else did at this point.

Joey,

I just downloaded the rules again from the APBA web site. What I posted from page 80 of the Technical Rules is still correct. Please point me to the official rule change you found that says the no 5 or 6 blade props in the factory series. I run a 5 blade so I'm very interested in this topic.

Thank you.

Jim

excerpt:


7. Claiming Rule - Any propeller may be “claimed” (bought) within one (1)
hour after any racing event by another competitor in the same class. A competitor may purchase propellers used in that race in accordance with the following schedule:

Mercury Mirage $750.00
Mercury Bravo I $850.00
Hydromotive 4 Blade Bravo $850.00
Hering 4 Blade Bravo $1150.00

$50.00 of the claiming fee will be retained by APBA-Offshore for Technical and inspection fees. Payment must be made in cash certified funds or by personal check, provided, however, APBA retains custody of propeller(s) pending clearance of personal checks and completion of Tech Inspection of propellers. The competitor must notify the Referee or Inspector of his/her intent to claim a propeller within the specified time limit. The Referee or Inspector shall accompany the competitor making the claim to the boat and owner of the propeller being claimed and make sure the transaction is accomplished without incident. Propellers used in the race may not be removed from the boats until the one-hour claiming period is over. Anyone removing a propeller from a race boat prior to the one-hour claiming period shall be subject to disqualification from that event and a fine not to exceed $1000.00. Owners may not leave the race site during the one-hour claiming period to avoid claims upon their equipment. Owner leaving the race site during the one hour claiming period in order to avoid claims upon their equipment shall be disqualified from that event. The failure of the owner to sell said propeller shall result in suspension of the boat and owner from further competition for a period not less than 180 days from the date that the claim is made. Claims for propellers may be made only for entries finishing ahead of the claimant. In case of multiple claims, the lower place finisher has priority. Competitors shall be limited to claiming one (1) propeller (or set of propellers) per event.

Joey, are those the proposed rules for discussion? The web site still has this posted:


Miklos or Alweiss, jump in here anytime.

Thanks

Jim



7. Claiming Rule - Any propeller may be “claimed” (bought) within one (1)
hour after any racing event by another competitor in the same class. A competitor may purchase propellers used in that race in accordance with the following schedule:

Mercury Mirage $750.00
Mercury Bravo I $850.00
Hydromotive 4 Blade Bravo $850.00
Hering 4 Blade Bravo $1150.00
Outboard 3 Blade Cleaver $850.00
Outboard 4 Blade Cleaver $1050.00
Hydromotive and Hering 5 Blade Bravo $1650.00
Hering 6 Blade Bravo $1700.00
$50.00 of the claiming fee will be retained by APBA-Offshore for Technical and inspection fees. Payment must be made in cash certified funds or by personal check, provided, however, APBA retains custody of propeller(s) pending clearance of personal checks and completion of Tech Inspection of propellers. The competitor must notify the Referee or Inspector of his/her intent to claim a propeller within the specified time limit. The Referee or Inspector shall accompany the competitor making the claim to the boat and owner of the propeller being claimed and make sure the transaction is accomplished without incident. Propellers used in the race may not be removed from the boats until the one-hour claiming period is over. Anyone removing a propeller from a race boat prior to