Future of Factory Class
 

DISCLAIMER, DISCLAIMER, DISCLAIMER!!!!!!

Ok ladies and gentlemen, before I start, I want to make sure everyone understands we are not going to do what I am about to outline unless there is buy-in from you, ok. This is only our best opinion on what we all can do to revive Factory Racing and build the numbers back up. So here goes.

Preface to the Plan:

Factory class racing must appeal to the industry manufacturers. To do that we must build classes around what is sold to most of the general high performance boat buying public.

Based on our research we have made the following findings -

1. The 525's are too fast and too expensive to serve as stock power in open cockpit boats.

2. HP500's are no longer being promoted, marketed, or advertised as a mainstream product offering.

3. The 496HO from Mother Mercury is a great engine, relatively inexpensive, readily available, and the base "factory/stock" engine of choice for many boat builders and not just high performance boats. This means it has a broader appeal and following among the general boat buying public i.e. fan base.

4. Target competition speeds should be in the range of 75-80 for F1's and 80-85 for F2's. With the addition of dry exhaust to the 496HO these speeds are attainable from the outset.


THE PLAN:

All F1 and F2 teams convert to the Mother Mercury 496HO immediately.

We believe that teams with the 525's should be able to purchase the engine, drive and gimbal for $17k-18k, and then sell the drive and their 525, get their engines sealed and exhaust added plus racing mounts and end up with $5000+ cash in their pockets. The 500 teams should not do much worse than that either.

We select a weight in the neighborhood of 4500-4650lbs in F1 and 8000-8350lbs in F2.

We allow Bravos only with the XR, XZ or standard gearcase.

All of the other current Factory rules apply.

RATIONALE:

This platform returns Factory Racing to its roots. The first weekend any of us ever acquired and tested our original F1 boats in Spring 1997 we ran around side by side, flying in the gulf at no more than 74mph.

By the time the season started in St. Cloud that year we were all running around 77mph. By the end of the year the legal boats ran just a shade under 80. The kilo that year was 79+. Miklos held the record in his Corsa and he was far and away the fastest legal boat in the class.

In Sarasota that year the top three boats finished within 1 second of each other and there were double digit lead changes. The racing was like that all year and if you ask the guys who raced then like Bull, Miklos, Kildahl, et. al. they will tell you the boats were plenty fast and the racing was hugely intense. There also were no accidents that year either and we routinely beat the open cockpit A boats and pushed the canopy boats around.

We believe with the slower safer speeds and reduced cost to enter, the F classes will grow again under this scenario.

ALTERNATIVE:

Detune the 525's to match up with the 500's and add weight to slow the boats down. Problem is that we will not get manufacturer support and the engines are too expensive to draw new racers. CRE can do that but we think you are putting a band-aid on the situation.

OK - before anyone responds, take a deep breath and read the foregoing carefully, think about it then let it fly.

If we are going to put 525's in boats and go 90+ you should have a lid.

Mike

Mike:

I AGREE WHOLEHEARTEDLY!!!!!!!!!

Factory boats are too fast! This seems to me to be a good way to keep the racing competititve, the costs down and the speeds safe!

Sure, there may be some costs involved, but it is the only sensible way to fix this problem. Guys that want to go faster need lids.

Sure, some people are going to *****, but we need to do what the MAJORITY of people are going to want, and I think that your proposal does just that. I don't want to go to any more funerals, and I would like to keep racing my boat. If it got a little safer, I just might get back in it.

Tom Caruso
Total Marine Racing
F2-32

MIKE A,
I THINK YOU SHOULD POST ON WETPITS AND GET PECONICS PERMISSION TO POST HERE.
ON THE OTHER HAND THANKS. IT'S A GREAT IDEA TO GET BACK TO BASICS,BUT LOCK THE RULES IN FOR THREE YEARS AND MAKE IT WORTH THERE TIME AND EFFORT AND MONEY.
I ALSO AGREE ON THE LID FOR OVER 90MPH,I RACED IN A OPEN BOAT AND I WON'T GET BACK IN UNLESS I HAVE A LID. MY WIFE AND KID ARE IMPORTANT TO ME. I KNOW I RUN MY BOAT AT 130MPH,BUT THATS NOT RACING.
I HAVE TO GO PUT MY PLOW ON NOW,BECAUSE WE'RE GONNA GET A BLIZZARD. I AGREED WITH YOU.
THANKS FOR SPELL CHECKING.

Mike,
Is their a aprox. price on the engine....and if this went threw would the engines be done by the beginning of the seasons.....I'm just guessing by the numbers but would that put the engine alone about 10k-11K....I have no problem with going more affordable and safer...so if the majority of the F1 guys agree I'm in....

Blizzard????? what the hell are you talkin about.

Stop bustin Mikes balls.

I'de consider that plan.

BALDY, WE KNOW YOU RODE THE LITTLE YELLOW BUS.
I AGREED WITH HIM,WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT?
WILL THAT PUT YOU IN FACTORY ONE WITH THE 496?
P-5 FOR OPA AND F-1 FOR APBA AND A AFFORDABLE PACKAGE.

THANKS SOMEONE FINALLY AGREES WITH ME!!!!!!

Gino - the 496HO is a standard offering from Mercury. Not Mercury Racing but Mercury. Engines are ready and available anywhere in the country right now. I know there are plenty of dealers who sell them and there are plenty of places that will take the 500's and 525's and help you sell them if you do not want to do it yourself. If we had consensus we could have a program together for everyone in a few days if not sooner.

Rich - I cannot stress this enough: the racers need sponsors and manufacturer support. So does the sanctioning body. Our product, so to speak, is our television and events. If we simply start giving that away through free publicity no one makes money. Everyone needs to understand that.

We allowed the HP525 because Mercury wanted us to do so. It is important to note that when we approved the HP3 and 525 both engines were right around 525hp. When we dynoed the first 525 race engine at Innovation just prior to the season, it produced over 550hp. We later learned that Mercury changed the ECM without telling us so the engine would outperform the HP3 presumably. They then refused to give us the testing information and tools we needed to ensure no one cheated the ECM. We had the ability to test the GM engine but not the 525.

That unapproved increase in hp threw all of our numbers off and had us chasing our tails all year. In retrospect, we should not have approved the 525 but at the time it was what Mercury wanted and we wanted to deliver for them. Oh well.

Mike

Oh yeah, since Mercury Racing refuses to deal with us any longer we can agree to a 3 year lock in easily so that is a gimme.

Mike

Thanks Mike,
Now its up to the racers.....teams want 1+1+1 and a 3 year deal.....here's one....I know of 5 teams that won't post hear and I'll make some calls....

Gino

And Miklos and I know of several manufacturers who are ready to go right now as well.

In the spirit of being brutally honest, can we also all agree to keep this exclusively as an APBA Offshore product. It really does hurt to create something new only to watch it end up other places all the time if you know what I mean.

Mike

Mike,
I have promoted LLC for 3 years for sponsorship and have been doing well with it. I have talked to teams that are loyal and will stay with LLC.....I have to go were their is tv coverage and more then 4-5 boats....or I can kiss sponsors goodbye....I think the racers need to speak up....I know of one Manufacture that has been great and supportive were ever we raced they were their.....and I'm sure they will be one of them that would be backing this .....guys it would be good if we the F1 class stuck together.....like we said.....

Mike A,

But wan't it you that original introduced the HP3 because of your deal with GMC. F1 wasn't broken until then,and the 525's followed after the HP3's. I have one question,F1 class wasn't broken so why did you introduce the HP3 in the first place? I know alot of people stood up and jumped for joy that Merc final had competition but look what happen you lost Merc,was it worth it? Let me tell you it was never an competition,GMC isn't even in the same league as Merc,and never really stood achance. I'm not being negative just truly don't know where you thought you were going with it. I know you are a very smart guy,and I was very suprised at some of the moves you made. I respect you,and the job that you have tried to do,and until someone walks in your shoes they truly dont know how hard a job it is. But again I saw it coming ,and many of the teams in spoke to did,but I just don't know why you didn't. Possible you did,but by then it might have been to late,and nothing you could do about it...
There are a lot of teams truly trying very hard to make this work,and hopefully for everyones sake the future will look bright.

Frank
Koolhand

sounds like a pretty solid plan, MIKE A. I AGREE with you when you said the boats need to be slowed down a bit, running these high speeds with out a lid is pretty risky at best, getting people like TOM CARUSO back in the boat racing is a plus for the sport. the cost factor seems to be in line, now what is the buy in and what does it do,. and how long does it do it for?????. will these new 496's be sealed and if so from who????. and what is the cost to seal it if it comes from the manufacturer, can we buy the motor from any body we want???. the weight issue concerns me a little bit ask Steve m. about weight in the corsa. but over all seems like a pretty good place to start.

THANKS
KEVIN

Damm,
Their might be something hear.....Kevin even wants to hear more......good questions.....

Randy....I know your on hear.....whats is your thought....I know your the old fart of the group and I know your concentrating on SVL but you know all the guys want your opion.....

It would also be good to hear from B.C. Steve k. and Gordo since they like the sounds of it a month or so ago.
And how the new Extreme team would feel about it...

You all make this sound like its a new idea! Its been around for over a year and it never got the time of day. I have a 500 EFI and a new 525. where does that leave me?
I like the idea and always have but I feel it will be hard to get the teams to sell and buy new at this late date. If this was told to us at the begining of last year and we had time to gear up it would have been better recieved.
Like you said, throw it out there and see what responce you get.
I was only going to race limited F1 races anyway so my vote shouldnt count. But I have NO PLANS on buying another motor for F1.
MD
It may be the only solution for a 1+1+1

Won't this mess up your sponsorship with GM?

Slower, safer, cheaper, plus a three year lock on rules. How can that miss?

I doubt SBI would adopt those rules but who knows. If Bruce bought one, I'm sure he'd run in OPA's P class with it too.

Ron, very,very few team in Factory ever ran the Vortec motors. There would be no impact on there program.
This could be called the Back in Black program! Is mother Merc. interested in backing it with some contingency for the racers?
MD

I think the ideas are definatly on the right track. We increased the One Design speeds to 85+ for next year hoping the Factory classes would slow down, be more competitive and safer.

We as a manufacturer would support a F1 team under those rules if we were allowed in. We would even be ok with additional weights if it were necessary for competitive balance on our 28.

Keep up the positive comments.

Chris Reindl
[email protected]

Randy....you should have no trouble unloading your motors.

Ron...your absolutely right.

Frank,

No sir. You are flat wrong. The HP3 was a Super V Light Twin and Single engine first, then we changed our SVL2 to SV and the HP3 was allowed there.

The Mercury 525 we knew was coming and was THE only one of the two that was to be approved for Factory racing.

In fact, we made a proposal to Mercury Racing in August of last year that would have kept them as the exclusive engine provider for Factory class. THEY NEVER EVEN SENT US A REPLY. Right up until the 5pm deadline for us to sign the GM deal at the 2002 Worlds we were begging Mercury Racing to give us some sign of life and they would not even respond. We then signed the GM deal.

We absolutely realized that Mercury Racing could have a negative reaction to our introduction of the GM (NOT GMC) engine and possibly retaliate, but the business case for allowing GM in and having all parties share the same stage and benefit from a strong relationship was much stronger. And we really believed that we and GM could make that case to Mercury.

Look, Mercury buys approximately 70,000 or so engines each year from GM. Mercury Racing takes less than 1000 engines per year. Mercury had adopted the GM 8100 platform already and was selling it as the 496HO. Everyone involved in the project absolutely totally believed that Mercury Racing would ultimately take the 496 as well for its 525 package.

It made perfect sense and still does. The 502 platform is old, inferior technology to the new 496 and since Mercury the parent took the engine it stood to reason Mercury Racing would. Again, still does. The HP3 is every bit as good as the 525 and it is built on the new GM platform that MErcury has already adopted. And its is cheaper than trying to keep the 502 going.

The HP3 was never intended to be a marine engine offered by GM directly to anyone other than their OEM's like MErcury. Our deal with GM has always been about selling cars and trucks. We landed GM as a huge sponsor because we were able to offer them a high performance engine validation program at a fraction of the normal cost while also giving them an opportunity to promote their Vortec engine brand and GM vehicle lineup.

Mercury Racing made this a fight and they flat out did not have to do it.

We showed Mercury Racing the business case for embracing the GMC deal and they refused to listen for no discernible, logical reason.

Think about this Frank: Mercury (not Mercury Racing) is GM Powertrain's largest cutomer. GM has over 300,000 employees worldwide. Brunswick (Mercury's parent) is also a very large company with thousands of employees.

GM supplies roughly 95% of all inboard marine engines and Mercury controls a huge (80+% is my guess) portion of this market. Brunswick boat companies use Mercury (i.e. GM supplied base power) engines.

APBA Offshore is a great marketing environment for the marine industry. GM buys into it as a great marketing environment for their cars and trucks. Are you beginning to see the synergies yet?

For some reason, MErcury/Brunswick has never gotten involved in boat racing. Why not? You have seen the spectator boats at our races. ( By ours I mean SBI, OPA, POPRA, GLSCS, etc.) Most of the spectator boats are NOT performance boats. Many if not most of the boats are Brunswick company pleasure style boats using Mercury (again GM based) power and Mercury drives.

The synergies should be coming even more into focus now.

So, if you are a Brunswick or Mercury executive and GM is investing money into a sport that one of your small business units has been investing in for years, you ought to think - hey, wait a minute, what if we got together with APBA and GM and really created a kick ass, comprehensive, integrated marketing program that involved cooperative advertising and promotions, GMAC financing deals on cars and trucks for Brunswick employees and deals that also promote Brunswick products to GM's 300,000+ employees. We might sell a hell of a lot of boats and engines.

We can offer new and exciting destination oriented customer cruising, excursion, get away programs to Brunswick boat dealers. etc. etc. to help drive boat sales.

Now here is what I want to know: Why the #!@$!@$#@%# would Mercury Racing go out of its way to kick our asses all over the place, piss all over the HP3 and GM's involvement in the sport, pull their support from us only a few months after publicly pledging their undying support for APBA?

If I had a say in Mercury Racing's business planning and I was advising Fred K. I would have told him that the GM sponsorship was a perfect opportunity to grow the sport, grow the market for performance boating, GROW MERCURY RACING SALES, and most importantly, to get my parent company to pick up the costs of marketing and promoting the sport SO I DID NOT HAVE TO!!!!!

Do you understand better now where we "were going with it (GM)", Frank?

You see, if Mercury Racing embraced this program they, we and YOU would benefit and start the sport on the real rise it should have begun years and years ago.

The real question to be asked here is why on earth is Mercury Racing rejecting the program out of hand. Why were our requests for meetings ignored? Why was Mercury Racing pushing GM so hard to dump us?

What are your thoughts on that????

Mike

I would not anticipate any support from Mercury.

You could buy the engines anywhere you wanted although we have some dealers who likely would love to offer deals so they could get some 500's and 525's in trade and then resell them.

CRE/Innovation is already in place to handle the program I would not think the sealing and certification costs would change and since we are allowing an upgraded exhaus to pep 'em up and make some noise, I am sure Innovation would make it financially worth everyones' while.

Mike

Sounds like a great plan.
#5 - 3 year lock on the rules plus 1 full year notice before any rule changes.
#6 $50,000 in escrow so if the LLC breaks the "no rule change" the money get's paid out to the registered teams that setup to conform to these rules.

Factory racing will come back big, great ideas Mike and Steve.

Is there any possiblity of more places that can apply with APBA in order to seal the motors and alieviate the monopoly that CRE/Innovation has? Plus it would be a great benefit to maybe have a place in the northeast, midwest, and far west to accomodate the racers from those respective areas, and save on shipping costs to Sarasota. Then maybe with the competition the costs of sealing them would come down. Just a thought, but I am probally dreamin

It sounds like everybody is thinking / working together now. The 525's and 500 efi's are an easy sell. I would consider putting a boat back in F1 if these changes are made and locked in. The bigger boats should not have to carry more weight though. Oh Chit I'm voicing my opinion on F1 and thinking about jumping back in? BH

No you are not dreaming. We have been considering it for a while now but we keep getting the crap knocked out us and cannot concentrate on the business. Now we are working on all kinds of projects again while also trying to generate some new capital so we can keep the train running. We are going to need Professional Memberships and an infusion of capital so please let's not forget that too.

Mike

Mike A,

As a performance class racer (i.e. take this for what it is worth), this is a good move.

Had this been done a year ago we would have bought an F1 not a P4 boat. The speeds of the F1 for an open canopy drove us to a canopy boat (bat boat).

Randy or any other F1 team, if this change happens I will swap you a 496HO and some $$ for either your 500 EFI or the 525EFI. That way you are set as I have this engine in my pleasure boat (which is exactly the point Mike A is making).

Happy holidays,
Rick Young
SignsForLess P4-99

btw... just curious how long it will be before Outer42 can make a post without bashing WetPits or Peconic. My suggestion, get over it.

BC is Brunswick Corp stock symbol
 

fyi....



Brunswick Corp (BC)
31.96 +0.21 (+0.66%)
as of 12/22/2003 at 04:02PM EST (NYSE Delay: 20 mins.) Manage Alerts

Previous Close Open Volume Day Low Day High
31.75 .....31.75 ......... 341,600... 31.60 ..... 31.99
on 12/19/03 9:31 AM EST on NYSE 9:37 AM EST 3:51 PM EST

Time to sell?



:cool:

Mike A,

Thanks for taking the time to write back,and all the info. I will follow up with Merc for ****s and grins and ask the same questions that you,and I want answers to.I have spoke to a few people at Merc,and got a different version of the story,but you have some good points so I will follow up.

Frank
Koolhand

Maybe it's not to late for Mercury , Fred K , the boycotters , GM and MA to sit down at a neutral site and hammer out these issues. It's time to drop the egos and do some damage repair. It looks like MA has mellowed a bit and IS ALL EARS - BH

As an ardent supporter of offshore racing, these ideas Mike make a whole lotta sense. Anything that can not only help "calm a storm" but bring new interest into our sport can only be a good thing.

I will bet you did. The difference is that I am airing it out on a public forum. They have a tendency to talk a good game one on one. Tell whoever you are talking to that they should come on here and tell their version of events not have you and other Mercury customers do it for them.

Also, tell them that there are enough former Mercury Racing employees out there who are no longer bound by the company marching plans and their versions are closer to mine.

Mike

Anytime, any place, and it should be open to the racers and sponsors who have so much at stake here. Let you all ask the tough questions and make us answer them ALL in front of you. I am game.

Mike

i like the idea of having more then innovation working on the engines, it would be nice to see one in the north east area, i spoke to a great machine shop/ motor builder 2 days ago they build and re-build marine motors for the local marinas, they charge $ 3600.00 for a complete re-build with all new parts and they warranty it, that beats the @#%^# of of innovations prices by far, and when they build a motor it is done right, and gives you the most out of your motor legally. some competition for innovation would be a good thing, and their turn around time is alot faster the innovation. volume business I'm sure would bring the prices down even more.

BH it would be nice to see one of your boats running f1, and it would be nice to have you helping the teams that would buy your boats, that is what this class really needs, people that have been involved and that are willing to help out.

KEVIN

mike and steve,
thank you very much for listening. low cost, low speeds, it will saves lives!!!!!!!!!
and make factory racing what it used to be. a great time for racers, fans, and manufacturers. sign me up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! bc

Mike A

I'll talk to them and see what I can find out. If I get any positive input I'll let you know,and possible we can talk about it.I'll give you a call or possible if you have th etime you can call me.

Frank
Kolhand
321 693-0023

alright,I'm here,so the 496,I'll have to check and see what rods and cranks are in these motors,as far as the sealing,should be realitively easy,and if Mike A. would return the ECM program that was applied with the EFI classes then this could work,but as a dealer for mother merc I would also like to be able to help on purchasing,knowing what the costs are so we can keep this program "low cost" until we can get the ball rolling downhill and get dealers,manufacturers, and large class sponsors back!the exhaust should be pretty much open to what you prefer or have to run,i.e.open to use what you want in the hope of possibly getting help from these additional companies and get them back out there promoting again!whacha think Mike A.,guys?


and hey MIKE A. thanks alot for helping,I and I hope it refers to alot of us,really appreciate your attention with this!!!! thanks!!!!

Mike,I've also got access to a dyno right there in st. pete so you could spend an hour here or there with us checking h.p. out of the crates,the costs to us is about half of innovations!

Well Mike,
Now you have my attention. If you are willing to make these changes, bring the speeds down, ensure that the rules would stay in effect for a set period of time, and assist in helping some of us transition to the new motor packages I am game. The $5000 is not the issue, the issue for me has been making sure that there are other boats in my class. It appears that these changes would bring more boats into the class. That would be great!

We had multiple engine sealers in the past (authorized by Mercury) and their was more cheating than you can imagine. I would love for Mike or Steve to comment, not using names of course. Every thing from machined harmonic balancers to hidden Ecm's I even heard a story of the heads and intake being removed together, machined and replaced without breaking the seals.

I strongly support the 1+1+1 if this is the engine of choice then Stick to it, If F1 starts out with 3 or 4 boats, stick to it, If I can't get my ducks in a row by the beginning of the season I'll run P4 until I can, we need a starting point this could be it. I pushed for the 500efi for cost reasons, but I'll stand behind what ever it takes to get F1 back on line.

Eddie Simmons
F1-68