don't use NASCAR...EVERYONE involved with that is MAKING money...well, maybe not all the fans!LOL

"YOU tell me how Mercury never made a single change which created changes in any of the APBA classes"...i really don't care WHO'S fault it is for rule changes...all the he said she said BS...i have no idea who to believe....but the foundation of all these rules and VERY open to the NEXT BEST deal...that all i am trying to get you to look at gordo....

Joey,

Perhaps you should talk to some people who have been around for a few years. They could tell you how "great" things were in the "good old days" and perhaps give you some useful perspective and background.

We never said we were perfect, just much better than the old ways. There are far fewer classes today than yesterday and more teams racing. We had 88 boats in St. Pete and would have had over 100 for the fifth consecutive year at the Worlds this year but for the boycott.

You think rules change too much today? Do you know how things were before we took control of the sport in 1999? The good old days were when rich team owners and engine builders controlled the rules agenda and guys like you got screwed. You want that again?

Look, we are ending the FActory engine debate right now. The rules will remain the same for the next 5 years. OK? Let's see if it grows.

For teams that want more of a stock class using the 496HO, we will listen. Yes, we know: "No more classes," some people will scream. But frankly, most of you are also demanding more of a club atmosphere than a professional motorsport, which means the club should be responsive to the demand of its members, number one, and should always be looking for ways to increase membership, number two.

Now Joey, allow me to answer a couple of your other questions directly since the clear implication of those questions is that we were doing something corrupt.

1. Why is Nemschoff allowed to use shaft drives?

Answer: Because shaft drives were legal in Super Cat when the class was created originally. Everyone was free to build a shaft dtive boat. He was the only one that did. Most of the owners then laughed at "the diesel, shaft drive A-class, Super V guy who did not know anything. That is until the boat showed up and started running great. So, in response to the majority of racers complaints, we did the #6 deal with Mercury but we allowed the then existing shaft boats: Tommy Bahama, Honker Cut Marine, and Pier 57 to continue racing, although we ultimately added two hundred pounds to them.

2. Why is Nigel Hook allowed to run Weisman's?

Answer: Because the drives are legal and specifically approved for the class. Anyone can run them but Nigel is the only one who opts to do so. #6's are also legal for the class and have been since last year. Not everyone blows drives up either. Most guys who actually throttle their boats are ok, the new breed guys who rely on their rev-limiters for the throttling have problems.

3. Why is nigel allowed to make changes to the bottom of his boat?

Answer: Because several years ago a majority of owners asked us to allow for changes in order to allow them to keep their boats competitive and safe. The compromise we made was to allow it but subject to securing our written approval first. Nigel has received written approval for every change he has ever made. So have many others.

At least one other boat made changes without our approval and they got penalized for it. This same team was caught a few years ago with cheater carbs on his HP500's but we had an amnesty program then to help with the switch to CRE, so no penalty was issued. By the way, this same guy is now the president of the OSS Super V class and is changing rules as we speak to make his new APBA illegal boat, legal in OSS.

Joey, rather than being critical all the time - we get it - please outline for all of us a simple plan to make this better, but please spare us things like:

Do not change the schedule, get more sponsors, cut racers costs, more television, more prize money. TEll all of us how you would accomplish these things and tell us where the money comes from to accomplish these things.

Do it nicely and productively so we can make some real headway, ok?

Mike

...and whats wrong with that? Boat manufacturers come out with better boats every year. The Bravo went from an X to an XZ to an XR. So the rules change to accommodate changes in the industry. The best you can do without specifying 1 engine, 1 hull, 1 drive, and 1 weight is to create buckets (classes). If a product comes along that fits in one of the buckets (classes) and sponsorship is part of the deal, is that a bad thing?. Adjusting the rules within a class simply provides the flexibility to keep the class fresh.

thanks mike...very good responsis to few of my questions.

"Do not change the schedule" PLEASE AND THANK YOU "get more sponsors" NEVER ASKED FOR THAT ONE, MAYBE TRY FOR LESS AND KEEP THEM LONGER?? "cut racers costs" NEVER ASKED FOR THAT ONE EITHER "more television" I LIKE THAT ONE "more prize money" NEVER ASKED FOR THAT...HOW ABOUT JUST PAYING ME WHAT YOU OWE ME AND SAID YOU WOULD??? "TEll all of us how you would accomplish these things and tell us where the money comes from to accomplish these things"...ONE WOULD THINK; IF YOU SAID YOU WERE GOING TO DELIVER THESE THINGS UP FRONT, YOU HAD THE MONEY TO DO SO?....NOT I COULD HAVE IF ONLY YOU HAD PAID ME MORE! SORRY, COME AGAIN, THANK YOU FOR SHOPPING!!!

jim, i think u mean "bracket"??...did this "sponsorship" do anything for the racer?...if F2-57 or F2-55 were to have changed every year right to this point,, would they have benefited in any way?...NO, they keep winning races and Merc still pays them the same contingency money as i get.

"Adjusting the rules within a class simply provides the flexibility to keep the class fresh."...i agree, "adjusting" should be the key word..."adjusting" does not mean changes that would cost tens of thousands of dollars! "adjusting" should be done to increase reliability, increase safety, increase participation and decrease lap times!...this is WHAT moves a class of racing further!

Thanks Joey.

Mike

"Do not change the schedule" PLEASE AND THANK

So is that your final answer to the question of how YOU would accomplish this and how YOU would pay for it?

YOU "get more sponsors" NEVER ASKED FOR THAT ONE, MAYBE TRY FOR LESS AND KEEP THEM LONGER??

So is that your final answer to the question of how YOU would accomplish this and how YOU would pay for it?


"cut racers costs" NEVER ASKED FOR THAT ONE EITHER

So is that your final answer to the question of how YOU would accomplish this and how YOU would pay for it?


"more television" I LIKE THAT ONE

So is that your final answer to the question of how YOU would accomplish this and how YOU would pay for it?


"more prize money" NEVER ASKED FOR THAT...HOW ABOUT JUST PAYING ME WHAT YOU OWE ME AND SAID YOU WOULD???

So is that your final answer to the question of how YOU would accomplish this and how YOU would pay for it?


"TEll all of us how you would accomplish these things and tell us where the money comes from to accomplish these things"...ONE WOULD THINK; IF YOU SAID YOU WERE GOING TO DELIVER THESE THINGS UP FRONT, YOU HAD THE MONEY TO DO SO?....NOT I COULD HAVE IF ONLY YOU HAD PAID ME MORE! SORRY, COME AGAIN, THANK YOU FOR SHOPPING!!!

So is that your final answer to the question of how YOU would accomplish this and how YOU would pay for it?

i see you did a lot of cutting and pasting but did you read: "ONE WOULD THINK; IF YOU SAID YOU WERE GOING TO DELIVER THESE THINGS UP FRONT, YOU HAD THE MONEY TO DO SO?"

my final answer is: you are the suppler...we are the customer...you know, supply and demand...obviously your demand has dropped! and you can not supply either!...O, you can? please send my money and trophies to my home address.PLEASE AND THANK YOU.

"mike did an awesome job with some things, but he started to loose touch"...Joey Grattan PB mag....i could not agree more! you have done some great things for this sport, but every time you hit big in the + column it's offset in the - as well...

So is that your final answer to the question of how YOU would accomplish this and how YOU would pay for it?

"how YOU would accomplish this and how YOU would pay for it?"...do you think Ford would ask this of it's customers???...NO, because their reply would be:"yeah, I know HOW, buy a Toyota!" CYA

...at the end of the day Mike we PAY TO PLAY...at the end of the day what is different about your "professional" series and a regional race?...regionals i get paid my 700ish for the win and no TV...have fun...with you we get; the TV coverage to sell to our sponsors...we also get get broken promises,paid months later, and sometimes get nothing at all... not even a 5 dollar trophy! thank you for shopping...NEXT!dress that PIG up however you want!...could this be why the SC's took off!!!

This has turned into a non-contructive joey -v- mike forum. Pick up the phone and put down the keyboard. It is way off base from the original topic.

yes i have TO...but i found that working for a large company allows me to leave work at work at the end of the day...allows me to pursue not only other things i enjoy, but also the pursuit other income generating (or LOOSING)ventures.

"Are you genuinely looking for reasonable solutions to move the sport forward"...without a doubt, i would like to see this sport move forward!...i put a TON OF MONEY into it! Well a TON for me i should say!

"or is this coming from anger?"...anger gets ya in trouble most of the time...i will say i am very disappointed in what has happened and where things may end up??

"There's little time for argument if all concerned are going to pull this back together."....i don't know at this point TO???...maybe this is kind of like preventing forest fires?...i know there is a lot of small fries behind the scenes that have been put out, we have extinguished many ourselves this past year! all it really did in the end was burn out-of-control!...i think it sums up a lot of the offshore industry!...lots of fires and robbing peter to pay paul

Q-Ball,

Actually this is not only constructive but instructive. Any genuine businessperson with a brain knows that businesses ask their customers for feedback all the time and the ones that do not = FAIL. Customer surveys, focus groups, etc., etc.

Now, the Boycotters left us because they claimed we did not listen to them and they wanted more control over their destiny, rules, and all sorts of other business decisions relative to the sport.

Joey argues that we should not ask them for assistance or help but instead should simply make decisions, deliver what the racer customer wants and then accept the consequences - including very public, no holds barred, fairness, truth & accuracy be damned - internet criticism of our decisions. He says the racers should not have to provide input into the business or lend advice or provide ideas but if we do not deliver everything they want then they will simply leave and go somewhere else.

Two polar opposite, but extreme viewpoints from the same so called "customer" base producing the same negative result. Anyone see the irony in that? Anyone see how the loud minority of offshore racers are sending the message to every potential legitimate corporate partner or event promoter that we are a sport to avoid at all costs?

So this is a very instructive discussion. What it says to me is that if the good people of this sport who want to see it continue to grow and prosper do not seize control NOW and prevent the inevitable slide back to obscurity, it is over. Then we can all do what virtually every other category of boatracing has been doing for the last 20 years - lament what could have been, express anger and outrage over why corporate America ignores us, and then argue over rules.

Hmmmmm.

Too Old is right. Listen to him.

Mike

qball...this is ALL about the "Future of Factory Class"...we can not have a future in factory calls with out a future in offshore racing now can we?

really...you know how many times i have called there!...at one time i told myself i would call EVERYDAY and leave messages to call me back...that grew old quick, i conceded...

Mike, answer this to yourself...if you ALWAYS have the right answer!? why do you have problems with so many sponsors, promoters, racers, and fans that you do??? you always say it's not me!...it's there fault!

TO has the money, brains, and the love for the sport...if there is such GREAT opportunity here?? then why so many people standing on the sidelines...why the increase of racers, sponsors, manufactures, and fans going poker running??leaving racing or taking a step back for a year!???

mike, don't listen to anyone...LOOK at what they are doing!,,,don't make me out to be the "minority" with a grudge...i am speaking up here while most of your "people who have been around for a few years" have just simply picked up their toys , moved on, and said nothing!

"joey -v- mike forum"...i was just thinking that :D ...but with damn near 4500 hits on this thread....there are a lot of people looking at the questions being raised here! ;)

"So many" sponsors? Mercury Racing is the only big one that comes to mind, and that was costing us, THE RACERS way more money than APBA Offshore was making. SO, did APBA lose a sponsor? or finally get out from under the control of a corporate monopoly on behalf of us racers?

These racers that have problems... just happen to be sponsored by Mercury Racing.
Coincidence? I think not.
The fans want racing. Good racing. APBA has a responsibility as a professional motorsport to provide close racing as entertainment for the fans, and have tried to offer that with classes they have designed and refined.
We as racers ALSO share some of that responsibility in competiting in the classes and under the rules of the competition based model that APBA Offshore has created or followed.
The difference between you and I?
I think Factory racing needs to make a big change to get back to it's roots. Back when it was "da Bomb" for the fans to watch.
You think APBA needs to say "phuck em" to the racers and make everyone race 525's, which you conveniently already have.

""So many" sponsors? Mercury Racing is the only big one that comes to mind, and that was costing us, THE RACERS way more money than APBA Offshore was making""...OK gordo,,,let 's say i give you this one 100%!...why did APBA make deal with a sponsor that was not paying them anything to speak of, portray them to be a major sponsor in turn? then turn around and not only have it cost the racer a ton of money, but also turn people away? it's sounds like a loose loose deal to me!! OK i exaggerated the usage of the phrase "so many"??..OK,,,,SO, ONE sponsor, ONE promoter, ONE racer (me), and ONE fan have caused this mess???LOL...again, why is it structured like this?


"You think APBA needs to say "phuck em" to the racers and make everyone race 525's, which you conveniently already have."...NOT AT all!!! but tell me what was charging thousands of dollars in penalties for using the Merc engine over the XX engine proposal saying!?? this is what SPARKED the SCL revolt in the first place!

"fans"...there are 14,240 fans right here on OSO...what percentage of them do you think attended 1,2,or3 races this year? chances are one happened within driving distance of their home! and you know the have the $$$!


Hope we still are friends Gordo,,,don't you have a fire to put out of something???

why did APBA make deal with a sponsor that was not paying them anything to speak of, portray them to be a major sponsor in turn? then turn around and not only have it cost the racer a ton of money, but also turn people away? it's sounds like a loose loose deal to me!!

Now you're catching on. I never said APBA made the smartest moves in this deal.

ONE sponsor, ONE promoter, ONE racer (me), and ONE fan have caused this mess???

Well, things were going pretty good until "One sponsor", (Merc Racing) and "one promoter," (Lee Mills) brought things to a grinding halt the last part of the season.
This led to a handful of racers screwing the rest of us racers just so they could say "neener neener neeener" to Mike Allweiss.
I never said you caused this mess. You just ain't doin a lot to help right at the moment. I'll give you a couple of hints...
Tommy Bahama and Nigel have nothing to do with F2 or the conversation.
No changes for 5 years? In all fairness, do we really think Mercury Racing, or any other engine supplier is going to stop the advancement of their products for 5 years? Or should we close the doors to any advancements for 5 years? How about 3, I think it works a little better.

this is what SPARKED the SCL revolt in the first place!
Actually, everyone was aware that there would be one motor for SC. It was the announcement that the one spec motor for Supercat would NOT be Mercury Racing. THAT's what sparked the revolt.
Never underestimate our fans. That's like us underestimating a customer. Like APBA underestimating us racers. It's just bad Karma.
While we may strongly disagree on matters discussed, I too hope we are still friends. After all, We're racers. We like to win, and H8 2 Luz. ;)
Now, if only some old barn or something would burn so I'd get off this danged computer...

Gordo, no i am not talking about the SC's...SCL's using the Merc 525's were going to have to pay to use them in 2004.

"Never underestimate our fans"...NEVER did that!...my point is there's not too many of 'em that give a rat's ass about all this...they are the ones with the $$$, now how can we shift that??

Joey,

I am trying to make salient points here to keep the discussion going but you make it difficult because you recklessly make charges not based in fact. You are responding without knowing what the facts are and you seem to be getting off on the number of thread views more than you are trying to help solve any problems.

For example, and as has been said over and over, we never penalized, or passed a rule which would have penalized Mercury Racing custmers. The "concept" of manufacturer surcharges was brought up in a meeting with Super V teams in St. Pete as a means to make up for the lost revenue from Mercury pulling out.

We explained the economics of the business to the Super V teams. We explained how difficult it would be to allow Mercury's equipment in without any sort of sponsorship and still provide the same level of product and service we had been providing for years. We also pointed out that allowing this would also cause other marine industry people to pull their support as well, thus causing an even greater loss of income.

This was an open discussion forum with our SV members and the vast majority of them AGREED that the surcharge was the way to go. Welling started out attacking in the meeting but by the end he expressed that our position was fair and reasonable. Then of course he felt he got screwed when we awarded Donzi the National title and returned to the rampage, lying about the outcome of the meeting and spreading his trash everywhere.

We had a similar meeting with the Super Cat and SCL reps in WHM's trailer after the St. Pete race. Again, no decisions were made. Everyone in that meeting said the same thing the Super V guys did about the concept. We actually then signed a socument stating we would not do that and the OSS BOycotter Rep signed the letter to saying the teams would show up and we all know how that turned out.

So your claim that this is what sparked the revolt just does not have a basis in fact. The revolt started when we brought GM into Mercury Racing's sandbox.

Much of what you say is difficult to decipher. You can talk about people standing on the sidelines and leaving the sport and going poker running. Joey, there were 88 boats in St. Pete. We had more boats this year than in 2002. We held our own during the worst recession in 20 years while cutting the number of classes in half.

Whether you want to admit it or not, the numbers declined only at the Worlds and look like they will in 2004 if something drastic does not happen, because of the boycott and the uncertainty it has produced.

The numbers have declined in Factory class for several reasons: the economy being first and foremost. Many Factory racers are opting to run in canopied boats rather than the open cockpit boats because all things like power and drives being the same, they are safer boats to race at the speeds we are going now. Mercury Racing's decision to abandon the 500 and our decision to go with them is another factor.

And Joey, if you could for one second, park your ego, you would see that you are in the minority. You mentioned grudge. I didn't but interesting that you that you did.

I still believe that the sport itself presents a tremendous business opportunity. It just needs to gather the real people. The good people. The smart people. The business people and the people with realistic expectations and views and then just go for it.

Perhaps "team franchises" and/or invitation only racing is the way to go to ensure everyone is on the same page and works together to achieve common goals. These members would simply agree to concentrate on APBA Offshore. We all would take a no internet pledge, approve a professional code of conduct and then do our own thing without worrying about what others do.

The men and women we would want are those who want to really race. Those who understand that racing in of itself is where the fun and glory are even if you are racing for second and third. Those who understand that real racing involves losing far more than winning.

There are enough people like that out there to make this work. Trying to work with people who stock up on cases of cheese to go with their whine need not apply.

And for the record, I have apologized, accepted blame, resigned, offered to leave, you name it on numerous occasions, even here as a matter of fact. You are either not reading and comprehending on purpose or on accident. Who knows.

Mike

Wrong. Ask SPEED Channel if we have fans. Why do you think they moved our shows to a far better time slot midseason?

Mike

once again...your right mike...i forgot, we're "NASCAR on the water"...you have to turn sponsors, manufactures, and racers away...just too many these days.

I have read this entire thread once and several posts a few times and here is what I have to say. I am only one small guy.....but there are probably others just like me.

After the Milwaukee races I was approached by a couple of customers that wanted to put a team together and asked if I would help sponsor and/or be willing to drive, throttle or crew for them and have been giving it serious consideration.

Yesterday they came by the shop to discuss it further. I told them I was not interested for the upcoming season, but would reconsider next season if the opportunity still existed and offshore racing was still around. They asked me what the hell I was talking about. We spent the afternoon reading everything we could find about offshore racing and discussing its future.

Joey, at this point you are doing more harm than good. We don't know each other, but out of respect for you, your accomplishments, the sport and others, I am not posting their comments. A little respect for the opinon of others will go a long way.

Mike A., if the LLC is setup to be a profitable business for you and your partners, tell everyone that upfront so they know and understand your motives. Stop tryng to make it look like the only reason you do it is for the racers if its not true. IMO, the CRE deal is a scam. There are plenty of ways to determine if engines are modified or not, take that expense away from the racers. Put an engine claim rule in place with a reasonable fee attached.

Sorry to say, but at the end of the day yesterday this is one group that has decided to stay on the sidelines and watch the fallout. It was a tough decision for me as I have participated in the local classes and have always wanted to take the next step given the opportunity.

Good Luck Gentlemen, you have a long way to go and not much time to get there.

Rod

"And Joey, if you could for one second, park your ego, you would see that you are in the minority. "

let's remove your opinion from that statement....and where are all the F2 boats that raced in 2000 and 2001??...humm,,,yeah a few went to SV...where did the rest of the racers go??where are their boats??not racing with you...

not many other motorsports where you can be a pro your very first race with zero experience...but it's also one that finds their veterans racing back at the regional level after they have had a taste...riddle me that one batman!

Mike:

I'm thinking there are certain people that would rather have a pint of your blood than accept you openly admit you made some mistakes. You've certainly done more good in our sport than bad and you have apologized more than once for the things that could of been done more diplomatically. There are racers and potential racers that like to rant and rave on how things should of / could of been done. I think it's a perfect exit strategy from the sport because they're either scared or broke. It's like a little kid that pitches a fit and runs to his room because he knows it's his only chance not to get his a s s beat. Admission of guilt is what I see from a select few. If the shoe fits wear it my brothers! BH

"I think it's a perfect exit strategy from the sport because they're either scared or broke. "...you would like to think that.

"It's like a little kid that pitches a fit and runs to his room because he knows it's his only chance not to get his a s s beat"...no,, i was the kind of little kid that would ask for another with a smile and walk it off later.

I hate to jump back in before reading every word, and as much as I hate to say it Joey has some valid points, with his help we should all realize that nothing really has changed, sure some teams have left, sure we are conversing about direction, but Nothing has really changed. All the problems are still here and all the same people are with or against, which really means we have had NO progress at all. For example: Joker still supports Mike, Joey still Does not. You see there will always be this stand off, sure Mike A did good things for the sport, some will argue that both ways, personally I think Gene Whip did some great things for the sport, as well as some others and the LLC rode out the wave, rides over guys, time to swim out and catch a new wave and see what your really made of, and maybe that is what you are trying to do, well at least I hope so.

I'll give you an example, a new US person becomes president and the economy goes great the next day, do any of you real genius's think a President could fix everything that is screwed up in a nations economy in 1 day, if you do, you move over to the LLC side of the equation, they need you.

Big Joe is just trying to ensure the people in control take the responsibility for there actions, and the LLC has been pretty good at also blaming others. Face it you guys did some pretty stupid stuff, St. Pete Donzi Decision was one of them, and there were similar decisions made in F2 in Marathon, but we do not have to get into that, you just need to understand that high profile decisions sometimes will come back hard on you if made without any detailed documentation to back them, especially if sometimes the rules state otherwise.

You can never make everyone happy Mike A, but the sponsorship is often not the majority, so what to do, I'll tell you since you asked Joey, always do what the rules say, period, and have the chief referee without the business influence decide the rule outcomes, heck you should never even be in an on-site decision making meeting, you should be out partying it up with the sponsors, well I am sure we all know where this paragraph is going.....so no need to proceed, thing is, don't get down on Joey for wanting the truth, we all know he definitely is not trying to hurt the sport, we would all love to race against 20 boats per class, and I know he wants to.

NASCAR, NASCAR, NASCAR......you'll never do it on this path, never. So maybe just try to make things fun and work on your organization skills, to this day, most venues are a cluster FU[K, half the time the wrong teams get the trophies, maybe if you started to get the simple things right, it would help the LLC regain some credibility, it can't be that hard, the regional races seem to be able to get at least that part right at the race site.

Sponsorship, I do not even want to touch this when it comes to the LLC, just tell me that you have none, because besides Speed channel vs. Outdoor learning channel, there really isn't that much of a difference between racing in the great lakes and racing in the LLC, so please tell me you really do not have any because the Great Lakes is non profit with about zero sponsors and they put on races very comparable to the LLC's.


I could go on and on, and please understand that I hate this he said she said sh!t, I am tired of typing, so it ends here, I could go on and on, good and bad towards the LLC on each of these comments, just understand there is a huge problem and not enough Good to overcome it, time for a road-map to recovery, businesses do them all the time, you mentioned surveys and the such, If you do not have enough info now, you never will, suck it up, take the results, put an action plan together and move forward already, dam...enough!!!! what does it take, a poke in the eye?

I could go on and on, just try listening to the complaints and then maybe the complainers will listen to you..



JK

JKK,

I have heard plenty. I have said more than enough. You are right. It is time to let the chips fall where they may. I hope you and Joey are happy with the results.

Mike

Doesn't really matter if we are happy, unless our views agree with the majority, if they do not then our team will conform as needed. Of course we have certain things we like and dislike, just as all the teams do and of course we hope our views are in line with the rest, but if not we plan to adapt and continue to support the sport as is required by any and all committed teams.

You'll never make everyone happy, as you have said, but hopefully with all you have heard we can at least get on, getting on and move this sport forward.

Please do not think for a minute my last post was an attack, I can just as easily write the same amount of text describing what good things are going on in the APBA and the Mike A. LLC. Come on Mike, there is a reason our team has not missed a race in 3 years, it is not becasue we hate the sport, you or the LLC. We believe in the philosophy of what you are trying to do, and understand it is a very, very hard job. Personally I believe it is not to late, and if 496 HO's, and what ever else that needs to be done is what is decided is needed to revitalize our class and ultimately the entire sport then we support it.

Times running out, lets get going, if you need help, myself and our team offer it at this time. We are all businessmen, business owners, management consultants, and we have seen this in many companies small and large. So I REALLY DO UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE GOING THROUGH, and I do not envy the work you have ahead.

Good luck, and remember, most of the people who share both positive and negative views still support you, or they would probably say nothing at all. Don't get complaints and support confused.

Have fun, and you know if you put the race on, the teams will come.

JK

Wow JK. Great last post.

Someone that is willing to give a little of the ego for the good of the sport. I no longer race, but have toyed with a minor sponsorship to stay involved. E-mail me at [email protected].

Mike Dodds

Ditto Mr. O

Stated very well.

mike a,thanks for at least listening to us,joey,well,maybe if you could understand that if your having a hard time gettin paid now,just think how hard its gonna be later if we dont get the boat count up,hell,if prize money will even be available with 2or 4 factory two boats runnin,years ago their was always rumor of 20 to 30 boats being built and new teams building,kinda like you guys last year,dont see or hear of but maybe a rumor or two of a few new,just less racers,have always respected eveybody in this sport,especially those guys I could learn from.....one thing though,how many F-2 teams have you talked too,and another question,exactly how many F-2 teams have their been since the start of the class,and have you asked or considered to contact them and ask them what would get them back in the saddle again,not calling and *****en,but what it would take to get them racin again,now speeds and courses are always a factor in most sports,but have you done the homework to define exactly how fast nascar entries could run if it wasnt for rules governing speed and the number of entries entering a certain course,and why is it that nascar puts restrictor plates at one track and allows a different plate at another,and with the sponsors they attract why isnt their a web site that nascar teams go to to allow us to chine in or read their concerns,and hear petty say,f-you nascar I'm not changin my car,see,those guys have a standard of allocations their set on and a certain determination they live by and they have gotten past this crap and jumped to the next level,how and why,can you tell us ! BECAUSE THEY LOVE TO RACE,AND THEY LOVE MONEY,how many nascar races have you turned on and watched 4 or 6 cars run around......NONE! and your answer to how exciting factory two would be at 80 mph,a hell of alot more exicting at 80 with 20 boats again, than at 90 with only 4!!!!!


ONLY ONE GOAL HERE,TO RACE,AND MAKE MONEY DOIN IT!!!

Mr Offshore:

The boycott was the nail in the coffin for our sport. It now shows promoters , sponsors , etc that if a group of racers don't like the guy in charge or a rule , they simply will not show up. It's hard enough to put on a offshore race in public waters and leaving promoters in the dark is unexcusable. I see Alweiss throwing his hands up and letting history take it's course. Bye Bye TV , Rules , staff and the offshore family as we knew it. BH

Brian, Rich, Fred, Al, Mike,

Great posts, all.

Al, the only thing I would add to your post is that it is much easier for NASCAR teams to be happy and closed mouth when changes occur because they are making money and you do not want to bite the hand that feeds you. I really get that. One also must wonder whether NASCAR would have made it through its own formative period if the Internet had been around. I am not at all sure.

My point the whole time is that if we want to get to the point of relative NASCAR success, our teams would need to deal with the bumps in private, with dignity, respect and a solidarity of purpose, not scream and yell, not whine and cry in public, not impugn the character and integrity of its leaders, and not air its dirty laundry in public.

I never said that the racers did not have the right to do these things. NEVER. My message has always been that if you want the sport to achieve greatness we all had to adhere to these basic principles and refrain from doing the hurtful things because the sport and the business were in their formative, very fragile years.

Now I think we perservered through alot. We have been criticized and maligned in a very public forum that many industry people and potential sponsors follow. Yet, right up until the National Championships in St. Pete we managed to survive and in many respects, thrive.

But Brian is absolutely right. There is only so much a person can take. Not because of the personal pain and anguish the attacks cause. I have grown numb to all of that. No, the real issue with me now is that the message is not getting through. Not enough people are listening and even fewer want to actually take the bull by the horns and save what we have built.

So I am slowly, sadly, coming to the conclusion that the reason for that is because no matter how much progress and success I think we have achieved, there really is not enough similar sentiment out there to cause a real call to action. What I mean is that it seems that the great majority of us think the old way is ok. Regional club racing with limited television, infrastructure, sponsors, prize money, and boat counts, are really enough.

Well, ok then.

As I said, I will always be willing to help. If there is a chance for unification I pledge my support to make that happen. Otherwise, without a serious turn of momentum in the very immediate future, I am afraid Brian is 100% correct in everything he said in his last post.

Mike

I agree with Fred....

I too, was optomistic at the early stages of this thread. But its not looking too promising at all. It looks like we still have a year of placing blame left before we can actually get down to business.

at this point in time, I could care less who is to blame. Get over it and lets make some attempt to put the pieces back together.

But rest assured, if this crap happens again under the same regime, heads should roll

If a year can pass with consistency then I think the LLC will be on track to grow the sport. They need to be consistent with the schedule, the rules - both changes and enforcement, paying prizes.
Yes, it is a problem that even Mike admitted to concerning Peconic "I should have allowed our staff to throw you out for a year like they wanted. My bad, but of course every single time I tried to do right by someone it comes back to bite me. "
Let the staff enforce the rules fairly across the board. Everytime you try to make someONE happy you piss off many others. It's only when that someONE comes back and crosses you that you perceive it to be a problem.

Also, take Miklos out of the boats or have him resign his position with the LLC. I would NEVER imply that Steve is anything but honest but it "looks" very bad when your competition director wins every race during the season. Again, this is perception. If it were any other boat would the parity police have stepped in?

I don't know steve,but if he does half of the testing everybody says he does no wonder he's on top of the game.

I'de have to say they are right on the money.