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gino,,,i totally understand what you are saying! part of the problem is they are trying to please everyone...racers, sponsors...the list goes on. make the rules and keep them...if you have a good series then racers and sponsors will come....improvements and the fine tuning of it are great...but to restructure it every year!!! come on!...gino, i know you love offshore racing! i know it, because i love it too!...this is just another short term fix! 500hp's, 500efi's, 525's, GM's, 496's ...they say it stops here, but history does not show this to be the case now does it? we keep chasing it because we love it...form a logical standpoint it's just plain ludicrous!
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"but on target for attracting new ones" you would think that with any successful business(including yours TO) trying to keep the customers you already have before trying to attract new ones? if nothing else the new comers have gota be skeptical of making any kind of commitment in the racing direction! How many X-racers, race team owners, and manufactures have turned toward poker runs to answer and address what racing has not????
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F1 and F2 Teams:
You all should be able to make a decision now or at least in a few days. The 496HO is the best route to attracting new teams and keeping current ones. The classes in their current configuration are shrinking. No class in the history of the sport has ever bounced back after such a decline. Staying with the 525 will ruin the class. You might keep some teams around for another year or so but you are not going to attract new teams. Boats are too fast and the SV's and SVL's are a better option using the same power. The 500's are not the solution either. Mercury Racing is not supporting the engine anymore as a main product offering so you are not going to get new racers or manufacturers excited about it. The general consensus is that the boats need to slow down; costs need to be reduced; mainstream product needs to be used; and the product needs to be something that manufacturers can sell and the general consumers can embrace. The current 496HO meets the criteria and we can be relatively sure that it will be a stable platform for the foreseeable future. The old 502EFI and new 496HO are very close whereas the original HP500 was a 465hp engine and the new HP525 approaches 560hp. There certainly is room to improve safety. Slowing the boats down is an absolute must. Canopied boats at high speeds are safer than open cockpit boats in most circumstances. If you want that then race SV or SVL. If you want to spend more time and resources on making paradigm shifting changes in the safety of open cockpit boats then do it. I am sure the industry will embrace and thank you. Mike |
was this not what you called outlaw class using the 502mag efi engine years ago...that is no longer??
what i do not understand is how the F2 boats all of sudden got too fast and unsafe??? a carb'ed 500hp is still the worlds fastest +35' F2 boat...still winning races in 2003....a boat built in 2000 still worlds fastest -35' F2 boat...still winning races in 2003 as well. "Slowing the boats down is an absolute must."...then you have known this all these years?...all while changing the rules to allow new higher HP engines into the class...then just add weight...no safety provisions for it either...sounds like a can of legal worms to me. No one answered my question...aside from what factory teams do on their own.NOT required..what is safer about an F-race boat than a pleasure boat?? "Staying with the 525 will ruin the class"...seems like i was just saying that only 1 year ago just prior to talking out the 500efi's!!!!....ted z. and miklos asured me this was the greatest thing for factory racing!!! "No class in the history of the sport has ever bounced back after such a decline"...and what class has remained unchanged for the past 5 years....the only thing that offshore history is showing us right now is the chaos in this motorsport keeps repeating itself year after year! |
Here is my suggestions.....
1. HP500EFI's for the next three years. There are enough of them out there, we know they can take a ton of abuse, they are moderately powerful (465) so speeds will still be entertaining, and alot of us have them already. 2. More venues. Bring back Daytona and more ocean sites where beach viewing is possible. Make the straights longer and turns fewer and bring the boats in close to the beach. I am not interested in "trading paint" with any boats since most of the time fiberglass goes with it!! 3. Lock the rules down for 3 years, assemble a rules comittee that will have drafts of the new rules 12 months prior to a change with a public (racer) input period. 4. Payout winnings on the day of the race, even if it turns out be only $50 bucks. I know that alot of guys would prefer to be told that the payout is reflective of the pool as opposed to being made promises and having the organization be unable to deliver. I can understand if during the growth period purses are small, good racing will bring sponsors and that can bridge the gap. 5. Sell shares of the LLc to racers. Not pie in the sky $50,000 shares but real numbers. This will give some guys the ability to see what the corp is doing with the money. Dont like the spending, the distributions, the salaries at least you have recourse as a share holder. 6. Dont let LLc. board members or directors be competitors as well. Have outside business people involved in the direction and growth of the organization. I was disturbed by a previous post that stated that Steve received his GM engine 1 year before the rest of the racers, and that Steve takes GM contingency money. It has an appearance of impropriety that gives outsiders the sense that there may be some self dealing happening. No accusations here, just observations. Add anything you can think of........ or challenge my observations. I welcome a spirited debate!!!! |
Gentlemen,
This has been an interesting thread to read and digest. It's obvious to me that there has been substantial progress made here in focusing in on the real issues and constructive direction and progress. For what it is worth, if timing permits Mike A. to arrange a meeting for all interested parties I will make myself available to attend and/or participate regarding input on our learnings relative to the durability of the 496 engine platform at various output levels and marinized configurations. We at GM are always available to discuss the base engines in our portfolio made available to our OEM manufacturer's. Steve Miklos was absolutely correct in an earlier post regarding the base long block production integrity of the 496 design and it's capability up to 550HP. Regards to all, Mark Skrzypek |
The real question is Mike........ how the hell do you type so fast?? Are you dictating this to a typist?? I think that this sport is missing one thing.... another attorney!! Well the missing link is here........
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Joey,
You are so right. Gino, I question who's side your on, I thought you were working for the teams. Safety is so over looked.How many boats call in if they and or other boats go down around them. Does our teams use spotter too advise us of a problem or could our chief referee call us to advise us of a problem. Have working intercoms that can call race control. They are out there! Helmets that stay on, neck braces that support your helmets, lifejackets that stay on ,seats that support the drivers and crews and help to protect them. YES I OWN A BOAT THAT STUFFED AND BLEW THE SIDE OUT AT 90 MPH IN A RACE,AND WAS STILL ABLE TO FINISH THE RACE. Both driver and crew stayed in their seats and were unhurt thanks to the previous owner bringing the crew closer and lowering the seat in the boat and changing the padding in the seat. Yes our killswitches worked properly. Note: The lower hull and running surface were both undamage not even a crack.Thanks to a builder that understands boat and how to construct them .Yes we will be racing again. Engines: Why not run what we have ??? Have our engine builder come up with a restricker plate since they are the only one's that have access to our dino sheets . Bring 525,s closer to 500,s 496,s up to 500,s. We just save the teams out there a lot of money. It just might bring some old teams back. We could also add a spacer in our drives, thats not to costly. Also at the drivers meeting we pick up the ECM.PCM.or Module we need since all ECM.PCM,and Modules are created the same . Our set ups should stay the same.Hope this will cut our cost,slow us down some and keep us safe. |
"It appears to me that the APBA actually is attempting to address what you hate most...the ever changing rules. But in order to do this, there really needs to be some changes made now...and a (3) year lock that will assure your equipment to remain competitive without costly changes. "...
my point is we get this EVERY YEAR!!!AND a new song and dance why it's "better" for the sport...so tell me; is the sport currently in a better state of affairs currently???????????you keep changing it...the F-class field declines, not only yearly, but also during the season!...so the answer is...change it again! change it to something that we have already tried and failed at in previous years...there's the answer. "why don't you tell me what makes a recreational boat safer than a Factory race boat"...MR.O, this was my question:"what is safer about an F-race boat than a pleasure boat"...the answer is nothing my pleasure boat has added kill switches. no windshield. and all the safety gear aboard. icom, external steering... |
Originally posted by d-hlaw I was disturbed by a previous post that stated that Steve received his GM engine 1 year before the rest of the racers, and that Steve takes GM contingency money. It has an appearance of impropriety that gives outsiders the sense that there may be some self dealing happening. No accusations here, just observations. I was racing SVL when GM came to the table and Miklos offered the engine to several boat owners, including me. Most teams were running 700 hp, so nobody jumped on the free GM deal because of the disparity in horsepower. As it turned out, Steve tested, tested and tested some more........and got the boat dialed in with less horsepower than the rest of us. I never heard anyone complain and I did not have a problem with it. But then again, I am just an ex-racer and non-member of Wetpits............what do I know. |
Mike S.
Thanks for helping out....it would be good to see a meeting to see who really is going to race for 2004.. Time, This is not about taking sides....We have 3 months to get ready to race....I said safety is an issue....but talking about crash test is way off base for were we are at as far as checking helmets, vests and other safty issues..can it be better..yes...but I was told before a race in 2002 to get a helmet that fit or I could not race..I had a peace of cloth in the helmet to make it fit better..... Is safety a issue YES...start a post about it and teams can speak their concerns..... But again...their were alot of teams talking about what we can do for Factory racing for next year and who would race....now with the last page and a half is just arguing....So you know...I started a post asking the long time racers for input on to help the class....a majority said to slow the boats down....then a few of us asked APBA to help us with this and they did....and if you read the posts from the begining you will see alot of teams that will or will consider racing in this new program...and the support of some Manufactures.... So personelly...I said I would support the F1 class on what they would agree on, 5 months later they still can't agree...I will not speack for F2....But as far as F1 some teams have showed even when the told APBA to put out the rules for 2004 so they could get their boats ready..APBA did...and then some of them did not like the rules and are looking to race elsewere......So if the majority of the F1 teams want to keep the current ruls I will race it...if the majority of them want the 496...I will race that way.....the reason I say that is that everyone is not going to be please with the out come and this can turn out to ba nothing more than a bi#ch match with only a few teams that don't agree..... So time "who side am I on" I want to race...If I have to make all these changes to my boat to keep me in it....well maybe I am going to fast..because my plesure boat dose not have all that.... Agian talking about safety is great start a post on it and get some ideas....but remember the rules were put out in OB for 2004......I don't see all these teams sayingthey will race for 2004 with them....if everyone thinks the rules at hand are good were are all the teams....what I did see is alot of teams say they would race and would come back to racing with the 496....and some questions have been asked about the engine and Mike S. said if we got together he would answer them.... So "time" if you are going to race for 2004 and the saftey issuse meet what you think are safe I would think you would be out there for 2004..... I will speak for myself and say...this running at 81 -82 in 3 to 4 footers their were a number of times when we came out of our seats and into each other...but landed strieght in and did'nt stuff thanks to Mark.....If we would have stuffed I can tell you we would have been ejected at least 4 or 5 time if not more....but thats what I like..being on that edge of coming out of your seat...is it safe....no.... thats how I see it and that comes from being their this year in that seat.....now I don't want t get into a argument on this I just want to see were the teams will race and what pack.....I have a hard time beleaving that if the only issue is APBA's saftey checks...that it could be easally worked out with the teams that are going to race...... Gino |
APBA
Could you show your members how many boats were registered to run Factory 1 and Factory 2 in offshore in 2001 / 2002 / 2003 seasons and in what year the BOATS was built. Thank You |
gino...this thread is about what engines to run for ORL/APBA LLC in 2004...the reason for this is safety...so a discussion of safety is a very legitimate concern here in this thread...the next reason is to improve the class with yet another change, all the while history shows the class will decline...so, yet again, another issue contributing to this discussion/thread of changing engines...and you also have the guys on the sidelines not saying anything one way or the other because they just want to see how the mess works out!then determine a direction to go. if any AT ALL!
ps..i love this one....no seems to mention anything about anyone "upgrading" their 500efi's to the 525's at the end of the season at CRE do they?...nah,,,,that would never happen!!!!because i never saw it in the 2003 rule book! |
Anyone questioning Miklos's involvement with offshore racing has not done the following:
1. Met him personally 2. Been to his shop 3. Hung out with him at Danny's drinking Tequilia. There is also another guy named Gary Decucies that has the offshore needle stuck so far in his arm that he's pathetically a lifetimer in this sport. I ran against Phantom1 in the old SVL with the 700hp engine. If it were not for the advice of Miklos to sacrifice the chicken on the deck we would of never finished a race! BH |
well I started my posts with the caveat that I was a newcomer and that this was not intended to be a finger pointing post. I want to be a part of a first rate organization. Steve, I hope that you read my post correctly. My portion of the suggestion was based upon anothers assertion that you were given some sort of preferential treatment and the general perception that this statement gave me. Nothing more, nothing less.
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Brett,
I have spent a few days with Steve and Gary. They understand boats and what makes them go fast and handle well. Steve & Gary do their homework. Their only advantage is they live and breath performance boats everyday. If you want help in your program, go to them first. They are open, honest and willing to help anyone. These are two guys you will enjoy knowing!!! Jim |
a long time coming THANK YOU
d-hlaw:
Yea Steve definitely gives preferential treatment to certain people. I was one of those persons back in 1999 / 2000. I came to this sport as a Rookie in 1999 and brought a tricked up F1 boat and a world class throttleman to my 1st race. You should of seen the greeting I got when Steve saw the new Warlock and Lance Henrichsen throttling that boat! The year before Steve had set the kilo record in F1 and won his division. I was his worst nightmare. We battled him every race that year(we beat him too). My championship came down to Islamorada and we fried the electrical system (batteries- alternator- ignition) testing the day before the race. I can't even remember Steve and Gary speaking to me the whole season prior to this race. Steve and Gary personally worked on my boat and loaned me tools and parts while I held a flashlight , as they performed a miracle repair job in a parking lot. They were still working on the boat during the National Anthem. Why? Beats the hell out of me. We clinched that championship due to thier efforts. Then in 2000 I sold my boat and was boatless. Steve loaned me his F1 Boat for (2) races until I got my new boat. Why? Beats the H E L L out of me. Then Steve calls me in 2001 and reccomends me to drive a new SVL. Why? Beats the H E L L out of me. Here is a guy that I could not even spell his last name and he gave me everything. Why? Beats the H E L L out of me. Thank you Steve and Gary and no matter what people say or think about you, I know you are 100% a true professional and your only doing what you feel is best for our sport. Brian Hollis |
Joey,
I'm not going to back and forth with you....I have said my part and you have 4 or 5 times thats all we spoke...but you now see the people some of us asked to help are not going to.....I hope with all this agruing and LLC stepping out is going to bring out all these boats you are talking about on the sidelines.....just remember some teams are trying to get everyone to race OSS and will say what ever they need to for teams to leave APBA...I hope people are not coming on OSS to do the same.....So to keep agruing with you dose not help everyone here...and the help some of the F1 ones wanted we just lost......I don't want to take the conversation to just e-mails for only certain teams because you seen it brought interest to teams that were not before on this open forum...but I think at this point we have to do what we have to do.....and if that leaves some teams that would have been interested in racing and they loose out then I'm sorry.....but this was going in the right directions along with another post "How many F1 teams or teams thinking of racing for 2004" with postitve input and F1 teams comming up with good ideas... Gino |
Jeez Joey, if you lose one argument you start another? WTF?
Nothing "Suddenly" got too fast. There have been discussions of the Factory boats being too fast since 2000. If you'd been around and paying attention, you would have probably been part of those decisions. One more time gentlemen, the HP500 is going by the wayside. How can we keep talking about the future of a class yet keep trying to bring back a motor that will no longer be available to the buying public any week now? Another point I will repeat so Joey can get it straight. The reason APBA was forced to allow the HP500efi was because Mercury Racing quit making the carb version. The reason the Mercury Racing 525 was allowed was because Mercury Racing told APBA they would soon stop production of the HP500, meaning the 500's wold no longer be available. Again, Mercury Racing forced its hand, (product) upon APBA. The GM Vortec wasn't allowed till after the 525's were forced on us. Now, do us a favor, either get with it, or get out of it. |
Gordo,,,bro...come on; "Again, Mercury Racing forced its hand"...if anything because APBA let them....there is a TON of racing going on where the same powertrain has been in place for years!...not APBA though...you got $$$ in hand??...we'll change the rule book for ya!
"till after the 525's were forced on us."....i found out about the 525's on OSO/ted z!...NOT the APBA/LLC site...i then called Don at lake-x...then steve m....then had to call steve s. to stop working on our boat! "Now, do us a favor, either get with it, or get out of it."...you should have used the word "me"..."us" implies your speaking on EVERYONES behalf...sorry bro, but there has been some people taking a few steps back from racing because of my "favors". funny last year this time i was trying to talk more people into the F2 class, stating; "the rules are going to be set for sometime"....hummmm |
You make it sound like Merc is horrible!...if Merc really was FORCING racers to use the next gen engine, then why were the 500hp engines still in the contingency program for 2003?...why was the contingency program STILL there after the fallout between the merc and apba?....phil and i spent a lot of time a merc this year...i just don't see it bro....kinda like when tony e. of merc said, "look around joey, where are my merc banners...other than on our truck?"....i just don't see 'em!....this was at marathon when mike said EVERYTHING is great between us and had tony stand up in the meeting!....you know the same meeting where we were told we would get 100 bucks off our preregistration...a month later it's really a $100 penalty for NOT preregistering!...you know the meeting where ted z got up and told us about the K&N product deal...CASH at the races for 3 places and free products...hummm no money i ever saw,,,K&N was not aware this program!! but we sure as hell got the stickers!...
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by audacity
[B]....phil and i spent a lot of time a merc this year...i just don't see it bro....kinda like when tony e. of merc said, "look around joey, where are my merc banners...other than on our truck?"....i just do see 'em!....this was at marathon when mike said EVERYTHING is great between us and had tony stand up in the meeting!.... At Marathon the banners were getting taken as quick they got put up. There was the Banner about the Marathon race in front of our hotel,it was gone the first night. |
Okay, so EXACTLY how much does a pair of 496 HO's cost. No really, exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!
Some one on here has to know. Then our team can make an educated decision. JK F2-24 |
I'm sure Al from Offshore Addictions can tell you he has been looking onto it and is a Mercury dealer....
Gino |
Last year And I May Be incorrect
One of the problems 525,s What PCM was run ? Unable to read at race . 525.s used a 555 microprocessers. This year you want use to change engines again? 496,s used a 555 microprocessers. Has this been correted ? |
I may be wrong here, I'm not sure, but doesn't a 525 cost considerably more than a 496? Couldn't the teams with 500's and 525's sell them and be able to buy the 496's without much out of pocket expense?
I'm a big fan of racing, and I'd hate to see it die. It seems to me that the 496 is the path racing should take for the future of factory racing. |
you mean sell them for WAY less than we paid for them? then install 496's in a boat that would NEVER sell with that kind of power. most in this forum would never buy a pleasure boat that had this little HP in it! ever drive a boat with 496's?,,,,pretty damn lifeless!
Formula says their race boats are too fast in the hands of a professional....so why would they build and sell pleasure boats that are faster to persons with ZERO boating experience??? that would seem like a legal mess to me! |
Then the Black Motor Brakes
And the Blue Keeps Going And Going And Going. |
Cuda,
The 496 is multi flavored. 425HP, 470HP, 555HP. Pretty much whatever you want. That makes the 496 a good platform for factory racing. The only variant that will bring the "factories" into factory racing is the 496HO. Mike made a good case for this. I want a 496...just not a 496HO. If a new 496HO class were started and I wanted to race that class, I would build a boat specifically for that power. It could be we start another class and see which one (todays factory or a 496HO factory) survives over the next couple of years. Let the market dictate. Jim |
RR,,,i would say your are correct if we are talking about <30' single engine boats...now in a 38 foot boat?? DONZI sells NONE...Formula you would have to ask....but some guy spending 300K on a boat is NOT going to want 496's in it! a friend of mine just got the 496's...i warned him...guess what,,, yeah it's a few MPH slower than the blue engines, but his cruising speed is WAY down! acceleration??what is that!
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Racers, seriously, what is the cost of the package. No really, what is it, seriously..............come on guys how much does it cost. You see the simple questions are always the ones that never seem to get answered on this forum. For all I know everything is all talk, maybe the 496 HO costs only a few thousand less then the 500HP, still waiting for the numbers. Mike A, do you have them, it is your posts and I am sure wouldn't make it without hard fact. But don't wait for Mike A if someone out there in internet land has the numbers, all right all ready, post them.....
JK Per Joey's post, most likely the pleasure version of the 38 Formula does not come with 496 HO's, if it did it would be a mistake, with 575's and boxes the pleasure version does not break 90 MPH, so with 496 HO's it probably would not break 70MPH, which is just way to slow in this day and age for any HP offshore boat for pleasure use. |
hey JKK,,,there never is any growing pains converting to a new engine/drive package is there!!!?LOL
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Jkk,
I talked to a Mercury dealer and you would be talking about $13,000....remember you will not be able to buy a new 500 in a few months...not to mention how long it takes now to get some parts already.... Gino |
that number seems REALLY low..are we talking about dealer or retail?
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Guys,
Why not simply allow us to create a new class or two that will satisfy the demand of the racers who want the 496HO (single and/or twin) while leaving Factory as is. We had E class a few years ago and it actually was growing when we ended it. The problem then was that without sealed engines, guys in E class were cheating and starting to go as fast as the Factory class boats. There is now enough separation between the 525/HP3 and the 496HO where that should not happen again especially with a CRE sealing program for the 496. This way everyone has a choice and no one has to get rid of their equipment. The market decides. No attacks please, just some adult conversation and idea exchange. Mike |
No more classes!!! Get the input from the racers, have a vote and do 500s OR 496s and be done with it. The #1 complaint that we had from our sponsors is the inability to determine who was racing against who.
Mike, know what the majority your racers want, make a decision and stick to it for 5 years. If you decide to have the racers vote and the 496 wins, go with it. The ones who voted against it will be pissed off and may stop racing. But, if you stick to no rule changes for 5 years the class will grow and grow and grow. |
Originally posted by MANITIE Jkk, I talked to a Mercury dealer and you would be talking about $13,000....remember you will not be able to buy a new 500 in a few months...not to mention how long it takes now to get some parts already.... Gino Okay now, I do not have any problem being the World Champion of the Fastest F2 class that ever existed, LOL, and would like to see the class grow again, as we all would, and it really isn't the current racers we are talking about here, because we are all already hear, correct, but it is important to keep us. We want to attract the 20 plus boats per race we had a few years back, and that takes new racers, new to the sport, of course. Both sides have some valid facts, and really safety is in the hands of the pilots, if you feel unsafe slow down on the course, don't slow down the class, I can flip a boat at 80 MPH if I am stupid. So what to do, well if every F class boat wants to do this, pony up the extra cash, reconfigure there boats, guarantee the changes for 3 to 5 years etc. etc. etc. while at the same time feeling it will attract new teams then we probably have no other choice then but to try it and buy into the whole thing. So keep talking, and lets see where every one ends up on the subject. If you really want the class to grow, you may want to consider the Hull homologation program crap, let some new manufacturers in and lets have some fun. If it meets the F class specs let it in, it should be okay for a let's say Phantom boats to manufacturer F class boats only if he can, you lost many boats because of that brainy move. Take off the fee's and let's let them in and race. Couple it the a 496 HO package deal and you'll probably get your 20 plus boats a class by next year... JKK PS - NO MORE NEW CLASSES, I WOULD HAVE HOPED YOU AT LEAST LEARNED YOUR LESSON IN THAT AREA. |
INNOVATION MARINE
YOU HAVE OUR ENGINE SPEC.BRING THE 525 EFI,S 500 EFI,S 500 CARBS 496HO,S SO THEY RUN CLOSER IN HP. WE HAVE 3 MONTHS SOME OLD BOATS MAY RETURN TO RACE AGAIN |
"really safety is in the hands of the pilots, if you feel unsafe slow down on the course, don't slow down the class"
thank you JKK! "reconfigure there boats, guarantee the changes for 3 to 5 years etc"....what good is the guarantee...it's not like they are going to say; we are going to change it for one reason or another every year to suit our needs...are they!? why is it that tommy bahama is allowed to use a shaft drive?...why is it nigel hook is allowed to use wiesman drives in SV?,,,why is it nigel is allow to change the bottom of his boat multiple times through out the season in SV? rick tramel using #5's in SV?....all while other SV are busting drives left and right! APBA blames others like merc for forcing the use of their "new"product...do you really think merc is going to stop the advancement of their products world wide so a few racers can be happy for more than a year!!!???....so tell me what's going to be ANY different about the 496 implementation!!!???....seems to me unless we change the foundation of how the rules get changed...they always will!!!!!....you're not going to tell me that if someone like Volvo comes to the table with a VERY large 6 figure deal in 2005,,,, would the APBA will really say no?....YEAH!....we need to look at WHY rules, classes, schedules and just about everything else gets changed? ADDRESS THAT! that, i believe if one of the largest concerns and deterrents of newcomers entering the sport. be it sponsors, fans or racers!...how can you build anything that is and has always been in a constant state of change?? basically chaos for that matter!! |
Joey,
You're right. NASCAR has been the same for the last 50 years. Rules stay the same for at least 5 years for every car on the grid. How stupid of me... :rolleyes: I give up dude. You win. YOU tell me how Mercury never made a single change which created changes in any of the APBA classes. YOU tell me how all the classes should be and I'll shut up and race. In fact, It occurs to me that I'm just a FNG in racing, and I should just do what I'm told... |
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