Racer's input.....
 

Alot of bantering going on back and forth, some I which I join in, but what is the reason that Offshore cant unite or be run in a manner more consistant with professional sports?? Dont tell me ego, etc., but what are the real complaints that seem to never be cured?? I am really interested to hear what you long time guys, current or not, say are the 4 most pressing issues that the 3 organizations are failing to address. I am not asking for solutions just attempting to identify the problems in a clear and concise form. I know that I joke around with some of you but I am very serious about the responses. I have some outsiders that are asking me what the barrier to success seems to be and I want to see if my ideas are on point.

1.

2.

3.

4.

Fill in the blanks.....

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1) Not enough boats to go around to support all sanctioning bodies
2) Rules inconsistent from sanctioning bodies
3) No entry level class-In order to competative in P5, one needs an F1 boat
4) Expense: if someone wants to give racing a try, 500 entry fee, 500 boat registration fee, 150 for each riding crew= $1,300.00 for one race, not counting travel expenses.

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What Bob Said

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I guess I am the newest to the arena and I have to agree with both Mark and Bob....

from my observation, it appears to be that the sanctioning bodies are competing over a small pie...........it is small because of the costs involved in racing......this part I am learning about quite rapidly....

I think we could all benefit from learning to market a racing team to potential sponsors effectively....we need to get Corporate America more involved with individual teams......

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D-LAW,
In my view of this ...You are going into the biggest class for racing next year in SV...You need to find out what organization will best fit your team and your sponsors. This has been going on for years....Some teams want to race against the most boats in their class..some will race were they feel they have the best chance to win....some teams will race only in certain regions because of budgets....If your going to do this as a true perfessional team and a true perfessional class. The teams have to make the commitment in each class to ran a full schedule were the majority of the boats in that class will race.
For 2005 there will be aprox. 20 SV out racing. It would be great if 80% of the SV's would run a full schedule in 2 santioning bodys. That would be a aprox. avg. of 14 SV's. If this would happen:
1. It would draw more attention to the fans and TV
2. It would draw more teams to join into a class with 18 to 20 boats
3. If your going to do this right and be a professional team with Professional Sponsorship money you need to do it with 15 to 20 boats in your class and race on a 14 to 16 race season....only a very very small % of teams can get $75,000 TO $300,000 Sponsorship for racing against 4 or 5 boats in 6 or 7 races a year with limited TV coverage.......but till we the racers make that commitment it will be both tough on the races, sponsors and the santioning body's

Just my 2 cents....I hope we will be racing with you guys next year.....
Gino

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Racers can fix this sport without starting another group. Just speak with a unified voice and the rest will fall into place. Why can't all 20 SVL teams pick and choose between the 28 races and make up their own schedule? That would help the race producers to get a purse sponsor. Make up your own national series within what's available.

Keep diggin, now that 97 boats had a taste of what it can be like, maybe with all this talk, something can happen to make a difference.

Dlaw, just a question for you. Do you have to race with APBA or would you also be open to racing with SBI and/or OSS if the rest of the fleet was attending one of their races? Loyalty to a given series by racers is also a stumbling block. Someone has to give a little (or a lot) to make a compromise work. I forgot, your a lawyer, you know how this works.

A compromise only works if both parties are not completely happy with the outcome.

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WOW, I think I need to hit Pollo Tropical for more mula!!!



please everyone stop by your local Pollo Tropical and order a Tropichop meal!!! :D :D :D

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I dont think that has ever been out of the question. I remember Bob Bull being on Biloxi prepared to run his SCL. I am more concerned about what issues (if corrected) would bring teams to an organization. Like amenities, treatment, facilities, costs, etc.

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klaatu makes sense....

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BINGO!!!!!!!!

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for this to go anywhere you first need somthing people want to see.
1 all the boats in one place
2 ocean racing.boats flying out of the water and motors screaming is exciting. offshore boats ruinning on a lake is like watching paint dry.thats what hydroplanes are for.
3.reduce the number of classes .make it easy for fans to understand.
its a start. lets go from there

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Don`t forget the BIG 3 need you

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There were 97 boats in Key West. Racing started at 10am and lasted until about 3:30. Is that size of event really needed to have a great race? I would think anything over 50 boats is a great show.

As a racer, would you prefer to have 3 boats in your class and 70 overall or 9 in your class and 50 overall? The point is, what do you really want. Lots of boats in the pits or lots of boats in your class to race against?

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Ron,
I agree if we can all race at one venue the boat turnout for SV could be 20+....Personally for 2005 we will be racing 2 santioning bodys, I rather do that then turn my back on good people who have been their in the 4 years of racing.....but not every team can do this..... I think what Bob Bull did this year was the right way, racing APBA and race some OSS and SBI races, If anything racing with 12 - 15 boats in one class in 2 or 3 santioning bodys can only be a positive thing for the racers and most of all the fans.

If it sounds stupid....my dog got the new password and my computer was on when I got home.

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Both!

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:D :D :D :D :D

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In the mid- 1980's when I was involved with the NHRA the Pro Catagories (Top Fuel Dragster, Fuel Funny Car, Pro Stock, etc.) took issue with some of the things that the NHRA was doing and how the Racers were being treated. A Group called "PRO" was created, and Kenny Bernstein served as the Racers Voice in sharing ideas and suggestions for change, and he turned out to be the Perfect Guy, a lot like Paul Whittier, lots of credibility and a Cool Head. We elected not to "start a war" with the NHRA because we saw the same Vision that they did in terms of advancing the Sport. Some of the tings that came out of that were no entry fee for the pro catagories, etc.

I'm not suggsting eliminating Entry Fees in our Sport, at present, we could not stand the economic impact of that, I'm merely pointing out that none of us (Drag Racers) wanted to Own or Run a sanctioning Body, and no one made threats or took action to do so. Out of cool heads and a common vision came change that benefited both the Racers AND the Sanctioning Body.

We knew instinctively that breaking it up into pieces was a Bad thing, and so did the NHRA, so they listened, and we negotiated reasonable concessions.

Unfortunately, in our sport, the prevailing method has been to take thier marbles and go play some other game if the current game does not go the way they would like it.

Bret, I think one of the problems we have is that while it is clear that the bigger shows are more saleable and more intersting, what I see is happy Racers who are content to be where they are at and looking forward to next year, so to some extent, I think that a long list of racers see this as succesting we fix something that is not broken.

I for one am excited to be racing the APBA Circuit next year, I think it will be an exciting Year with good competition.

I'm sure the OSS Guys and SBI Guys would say the same thing.

Gregg Reichman

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Gino,
You make some good points, and the most important one is sponsor,and coverage that the sponsor expect,TV is most important and SBI is the only one with TV at this time,and second is a schedule. I know alot of teams that would agree with you,and wouldn't still have a sponsor today if it wasn't for TV., they were told flat out no TV no money. We've talked about it many times,and we all know we aren't racing for the prize money because a team just couldn't make it. The only way this sport is going to be fixed is with MONEY and LOTS OF IT. All the other problems would go away if someone injected the sport with a huge amount of money,everyone always talks about Nascar but they forget how and why it now is as big as it is...BIG MONEY behind it and if you think back it wasn't all that long ago.

Frank
"Koolhand"

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SMYTH1
Have you ever raced on Lake Erie,or any where for that matter.
When we raced Cleveland the boats were flying.

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1. better management,I do realize now all the organizers are dealing with other problems and trying to stay alive,profit can be made,but first,a solid companie has to establish there sponsors through there promotions,not from there contestants,I mean really,how good would fear factor be if the contestants had to pay 50 grand each to enter.

2.the winers need to stay home,if its legal,race it,to much contreversy from the little guys,race and grow like the rest of us had too!buying the fastest boat and having the biggest wallet does not make you fast,hard work and more hard work does!were would nascar be if everybody behind the third place car pulled of the track and publicly embarrased the top three finishers and the organizers.good TV is when the two out board cats landed on top of each other in the turn,broadcast some contreversy,some competitiveness.

3. promotions,TV coverage sucks,last night I watched the sarasota race,I watched a few boats and alot of commercials and didn't even see but one single competitive moment,and that was smitty and joey which were both racing in different classes,politics about APBA vrs SBI kept that from being a good damm show,what was there 70 boats,never saw but a quarter of them.why can't we get some footage to the guy that decided to run that gilligans isle crap on tv.

sorry,I can only think of three things,we already have some of the greatest people and attitudes and competitors in the world,we just need someone to channel it all together!

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Smitty and I have been saying this for years. We race where we want against whomever, it doesn't matter as long as we're all together and having fun with the rest of the teams, and I feel if other teams kinda get into that frame of mind and we all figure out where we want to race things could really open up. We have the tools to do all this and keep in touch with each other (OSO), come on, Sarasota with APBA & SBI was great! The Worlds with everybody was FANTASTIC. Think about everybody seeing each other down on Duvale St., every night and the $hit that went on, The Muscle Party, That's what it's about, everybody together.

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While I agree with you Augie that it needs to be fun, there is a great divergence from "fun" and "professional" sports. I venture a guess that Earnhardt isnt having fun on press day, sponsor obligations, press meetings, etc. The problem appears to be that in order to be a legit "professional" motorsport the competitors need to treat it as such. The fact is that if racers really want a "Nascar" style sport they are going to need to change the way they present themselves. Bottom line is that if we want to all get together in a Key West style setting and race 90 boats where fun is the focus then lets do it!! If we want to get REAL sponsorship, real money, and a level of legitimacy then tough decisions need to be made and alot of critical examination of the way we present ourselves needs to happen. I am not talking about telling the other guy what he is doing wrong, but looking at ourselves and being truly critical of our contributions. It would mean that OSS, APBA, SBI would have to take a very tough stance on racer conduct and presentation, that teams would have to commit to public appearances (not partying), that sponsors would be able to peruse the forum and not be uncomfortable about what they read, etc.... you know what I am saying.

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well brett,if SBI or APBA would promote us on the streets then we wouldn't have to,we could all confine ourselves to our own personal fun elsewhere,but they don't,so if you think were all going to keywest and letting the promoters promote themselves instead of us at our expense!I don't know about everyone else,but our sponsor directed us to the streets bearing gifts for the public,and if a racing fan wants to buy me a draft,he's more than welcome to!after the race of course!

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not at all mark,brett stated that we aren't presenting ourselves properly by being on the streets,our sponsors directed us out there!and what do you mean leave oss out of this,nascar has how many stores that sell what?TEAM LOGOS!I don't know about you,but I sure would stop by the oss camp for some shirts or just general stuff from bob bull,or billy mauf!(don't know if I spelled that right)in fact I'd go out of my way,wouldn't you!
do you know how many OSS teams donate stuff to me to be directed to the kids in the school district by my house,how many of them take the time to autograph this stuff knowing that there going to make some kids heart skip a beat while smilingfrom ear to ear!

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the funny thing is mark,after eight years of racing,I finally got toasted enough at my local pub to talk the owner into letting me put freeze frames videos up on the big screen,all the people loved it and couldn't take there eyes off it,couldn't even take ther eyes off it long enough to say something,no commercials,just racing!I turned off ESPN to do that,and they loved it!these people pay large amounts of money to nascar indirectly,between tickets and general logo'd items,and basically other than conversating with me,they don't even know we exist!

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Hey Al, your 100% correct and I agree with you. I think I'd like to be a little pi$$ed off on press days, meetings ect., as I'm sure Dale is but when I think of the $$$ that comes from it I'd probly put a smile on my mug. I would love to make money on this sport and Smitty, Pop-Pop, Louise and I are working on some crazy Ideas. I don't judge anybody (I don't have that kind of power ) nor do I say who's right and wrong, there is none as of yet. I just feel we had a hell of a time in Key West, all the Bodies know that as well as the fans and teams...What's so hard about keeping it going. It's right there in front of us, we make it complicated. I'm game for just about anything and will push the hell out of it and you all know that. I think we can have loads of fun and still keep it a professional sport...no? Look what we've done as The Jersey Boyz in 3 years, I never thought in a millon years we would get this kind of press but they like us nuts. We had a misson, a goal and we stood by it as anyone can do but we did it TOGETHER. Unity is strength.This is how we are gonna make this a paying sport,with unity and being spectator friendly. The sponsors will come. Al, am I in left field with a hockey stick?

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augie,your shirts are piled with the rest for the kids,I push and push no matter what.the pucks on the way to ya,and I tell you and everybody else,theres a small pub near my house I've been going to for 14 years,I finally got them interested,a showing of a few professionals as yourself would help us all out,not us as individuals!

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Al , I think you should also mention that your favorite watering hole, recently went out of business. :eek: :eek:

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Mons Venus went out of buisiness? :eek:

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I didnt say that we are presenting ourselves properly, I said that if we are serious about getting real sponsors we will need to get in line with the way that corporate america wants to be represented. Keep in mind Corporations do a straight cost/benefit analysis to pouring money in a sport. If the numbers dont work then the $$ doesnt flow, period. If this is going to be club racing, then fine. Lets go have fun!! If you are really ineterested in being a professional sport then it takes more than talking the talk, we need to walk the walk. It appears that many are unwilling to do that. The number of organizations is not as important as the outward appearance to the corporate world.

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wrong one bruce,sammy frogs went out of business,FAT HEADS is stiil and always has been going on,you didn't want to go that far!that was the original place I wanted to go,you said no,but hey,did they love us there or what?you beer drinkin frog stacking maniac!

scott,theres inquiring female minds on here,and its the class act where they hang our flags for the night,gino and trophy ***** and etc. know where that place is!

and by the way bruce,don't you hold a frog stacking world championship there,or was that lisa?

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Try this......Miami Boat show, Lets flex our muscles. A summit, SBI OSS APBA. most of the racers are from Florida anyway. If you care about your sport airline tickets are cheaper than a night in the bar. We need more than one unified race. It has to start somewhere. I know Bubba attends, How about Bull or Poplin, Whittier, Abrams? We do have a voice. SBI and APBA made an attempt last season. OSS only came along because it was Key West. Racers should need to attend two unified races to Qualify for the WORLDS in KW. Sarasota already has SBI and APBA in attendance. Bring in the OSS. Ft Meyers is an OSS race. Bring SBI and APBA there. Thats two.

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I like it it, I'll be in Miami. Tell me where and when.
Make it 3. Sarasota wich is an SBI event, Ft Meyers an OSS event, and an APBA event as well. Be fair to all 3. As racers we can make it happen. Just convince OSS to let us little guys race with them once.

Or, we make a statement elswhere, Like Kissimee, Pt. Pleasant, or a another non National event

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Back to the question:
1) To many classes
2) To many classes
3) To many classes
4) To many classes

More boats per class. STOP BUILDING boats for classes with no future. Make it a priority in each sanctioning body to only have 4-5 classes and then stick to it. I dont care if its P1-P5 or A-D but get away from the 12-18 different class thing. In theory 1 race per class with 20 plus boats will make for better racing and a better fan base which leads to better sponsors ect.
MD

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How about eliminating Super Cat and just having a cat class with SCL's, and eliminate SVL and just run SV's on sundays. 2 seperate races that have a clear leader and finishing order. A "Pro" class so to speak. Have all others run in a few classes on saturday. (this is not intended to insult anyone just an idea about focusing the attention on some key classes) How about A and B classes to pick up the rest of the field??

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I agree to many classes. WHo Won????? That is the question at all races. If the groups could swallow their pride and do it for the sport we could do as TYPHOON put it. THe GLSCS is ready..

A.B.

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If you reduce classes, boats will be left on the trailers for sure. I too would love to see 15 -20 similar boats in one class. But, if you leave boats on the trailers, the boat count would go down and spectators will not come. Damned if you do.. Damned if you dont. How do we fit all the different types of boats into lets say, 3 classes?

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THe Series currently offers offers P1-P5 and F-1and F2 total of seven classes.

Our turn-out for factory was dismal at best this year and we will discuss offering it for 2005. This would bring us to (5) classes.

We are currently working to do a joint centrally located so that both groups have similar travel. OUr goal is to align rules to make it easier for both groups to race together.

we will also discuss joint events for 2005. Possibly (3) from each groups schedule. Our events with OPA will probably probably include OSS as well. St. Claire, Louisville and one to be anounced.

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its already done ,p1-p5.doesn't matter what kind of boat or motors you have you will fit in a class.could be alot less confusing to go back to a-d,m..mercury spec classes are a great concept but does not work as proven in f1,f2.if your boat gets older and outdated you are in the back.therfore having to spend min 50k for a new boat evey couple of years

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I have been hearing about this for 20years. Look guys offshore racing is NEVER going to be like NASCAR. Not even close. Even IRL and Champ cars are not like nascar. Not that offshore can't do better but I truly believe offshore racing will always be FOR the racers. History has proved this to be true.Not enough mass appeal. Don't beat me up as I love the sport, but please be realistic. I think the Jerzy boys have a great deal race and have fun!