The Facts
07-23-2006 | 04:28 PM
#32
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
Re: The Facts
Howdy Fellas....
Some things should be said in public. This is one of them, but of well...
Smitty, sorry for your luck. While I'm not a fan of yours, I do admire what you and Anthony have done. For you to walk away without any pro-class redemption would be a trajedy. Not to mention a blow to your reputation; and more importanly, Anthony's. Frankly, the piss on it, "I'll put Whipples and race P-class" is a bad example of what to do in this situation in my book.
With that said, I'll pledge the first $500 towards legal OSS motors for you and will help raise more money from your OSS, OPA, and OSO brothers so you can get the monkey off your back and make this thing right.
At the end of the day, you're only human and you wear your heart on your sleeve (or whatever the saying is). But you need to ditch the "I'm a victim" pitch and go out and make things right for you and your son.
Let me know where to send the money.
Mark Mathews
Some things should be said in public. This is one of them, but of well...
Smitty, sorry for your luck. While I'm not a fan of yours, I do admire what you and Anthony have done. For you to walk away without any pro-class redemption would be a trajedy. Not to mention a blow to your reputation; and more importanly, Anthony's. Frankly, the piss on it, "I'll put Whipples and race P-class" is a bad example of what to do in this situation in my book.
With that said, I'll pledge the first $500 towards legal OSS motors for you and will help raise more money from your OSS, OPA, and OSO brothers so you can get the monkey off your back and make this thing right.
At the end of the day, you're only human and you wear your heart on your sleeve (or whatever the saying is). But you need to ditch the "I'm a victim" pitch and go out and make things right for you and your son.
Let me know where to send the money.
Mark Mathews
07-23-2006 | 04:46 PM
#33
Registered
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 5,136
Likes: 231
From: Edison NJ USA
Re: The Facts
If there is no advantage to modifying the motors why would the VP of fountain put used motors in his own factory boat?
Frank first you blame the OSS inspectors for not catching the cheater motors. Then Phantom criticizes them for over inspecting the boat and the bottom line is after hours of time inspecting the boat the only thing left to tec requires the motors to be torn down past the seals and bingo there not legal OSS motors. Like it or not that's why we should only have one manufacture sealing motors.
And Dave Knight, To try and tell the rest of us here that you didn't know they were not legal motors in OSS is about as lame as I would expect! The VP of fountain that has raced for years didn't know that modifications were not legal in OSS. Even if you thought that Smitty was only going to race in SBI then you should have told him that what legal in SBI is not legal in OSS. Man up Fountain and buy the 2 new motors you owe Smitty and also pay the prize money that should be returned and another $20,000 for set up time.
Frank first you blame the OSS inspectors for not catching the cheater motors. Then Phantom criticizes them for over inspecting the boat and the bottom line is after hours of time inspecting the boat the only thing left to tec requires the motors to be torn down past the seals and bingo there not legal OSS motors. Like it or not that's why we should only have one manufacture sealing motors.
And Dave Knight, To try and tell the rest of us here that you didn't know they were not legal motors in OSS is about as lame as I would expect! The VP of fountain that has raced for years didn't know that modifications were not legal in OSS. Even if you thought that Smitty was only going to race in SBI then you should have told him that what legal in SBI is not legal in OSS. Man up Fountain and buy the 2 new motors you owe Smitty and also pay the prize money that should be returned and another $20,000 for set up time.
07-23-2006 | 05:28 PM
#36
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 8,908
Likes: 9
From: Long Island,New York
Re: The Facts
Originally Posted by TYPHOON
Those would both be illegal if out of spec.
MD
MD
07-23-2006 | 05:47 PM
#37
Registered
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 4,339
Likes: 1
From: Florida
Re: The Facts
Dave Knight never said he knew what was done at the time of his rebuild nor did he care...All he said is that the motors where sealed and legal to race SBI/APBA .... Believe me he doesn't have a clue what the OSS rules are nor does he care. No more then you knew what the SBI/APBA rules were a few days ago before this.
It is still a question in alot of people minds if anything was even done to the motors??? So lets not assume that we believe they are not to specs.
It is still a question in alot of people minds if anything was even done to the motors??? So lets not assume that we believe they are not to specs.
07-23-2006 | 05:52 PM
#38
Registered
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 155
Likes: 0
From: Nowhere, USA
Re: The Facts
Please tell me that last statement isnt true that he doesnt know the OSS rules and that he didnt know of the modifications. So what your saying is that Fountain doesnt give a crap about the fountains that run OSS only SBI.
....i'm sure you love that viper more
07-23-2006 | 06:13 PM
#40
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 731
Likes: 1
From: The South -Prairieville @ New Orleans
Re: The Facts
Originally Posted by KenD
Here is what we have learned so far:
Smitty’s engines have been rebuilt and “decked” (As understand it, this means the heads and/or engine block have been machined down to compensate for warping or other irregularities). By removing this material, there was a resulting increase in compression ratio. Innovation discovered this when the engines where sent to them for sealing. Innovation was instructed to grind-out material from the combustion chambers to compensate for the increased compression ratio.
My questions are:
I believe that although Smitty’s engines had been worked before they arrived at Innovation, every effort was taken by Dave Stiff and his fine crew to assure they fell into the performance parameters of the Mercury 525. I also believe that this is nothing more than a smear campaign instigated by Mercury and condoned by OSS to further the respective agendas of each.
As for David Knight and Fountain, it is the general perception that Fountain has been, if not cheating, at the very least working in the gray areas of the rules for a long time. Fountain has an image problem, and as a publicly traded company, its time for some damage control. How should they do this? Endorse every suggested rule change that they have fought for the past three years. They should support the idea of publicly posting of the dyno sheets of every sealed racing motor so everyone can see who has how much power and torque. Support the “Race ECM” program where each team puts a new ECM on the trailer and draws their ECM from the pool before each race. Support the one ratio drive rule for SSM6 drives. Support…and initiate every idea that would remove the perception that Fountain is cheating.
Fountain builds one heck of a boat and has the best factory racing support program in the sport. They also field 80% of the V-bottom boats competing in Offshore. Numbers alone give them the advantage to be on the podium every race.
Sorry Smitty, it looks to me that you just got caught in the middle of a classic political and corporate mud slinging campaign. Its not personal…its Offshore racing.
Ken Doyle
Smitty’s engines have been rebuilt and “decked” (As understand it, this means the heads and/or engine block have been machined down to compensate for warping or other irregularities). By removing this material, there was a resulting increase in compression ratio. Innovation discovered this when the engines where sent to them for sealing. Innovation was instructed to grind-out material from the combustion chambers to compensate for the increased compression ratio.
My questions are:
1.) Who instructed Innovation to grind out the combustion chambers?
2.) Wouldn’t grinding the combustion chambers require a change in the intake runners to compensate for the change from the original design of the combustion chamber in order to keep the engine in spec?
3.) Did any of these changes give the engines more horsepower or more torque?
4.) Where any horsepower/torque changes any greater than the difference between a stock Mercury 525 and a Mercury 525 rebuilt by Mercury?
5.) When Mercury rebuilds a 525, what do they do to compensate for increased compression ratio when an engine is “decked”?
Aside from these questions, it occurs to me that it is quite possible that although there have been have modifications to Smitty’s engines, and Innovation tested and sealed the engines, it is quite possible that these changes did not give him a competitive advantage. So, who would benefit from his disqualification? The obvious answer is Mercury and OSS for the following reasons: 2.) Wouldn’t grinding the combustion chambers require a change in the intake runners to compensate for the change from the original design of the combustion chamber in order to keep the engine in spec?
3.) Did any of these changes give the engines more horsepower or more torque?
4.) Where any horsepower/torque changes any greater than the difference between a stock Mercury 525 and a Mercury 525 rebuilt by Mercury?
5.) When Mercury rebuilds a 525, what do they do to compensate for increased compression ratio when an engine is “decked”?
1.) Disqualification for all previous races and the return of prize money puts cash back into the coffers of the sanctioning body, who is reportedly already financially strapped.
2.) Disqualification will cast doubt on the integrity of Innovation, a company who builds marine engines in competition with Mercury.
3.) Disqualification will cast doubt on Fountain Powerboats, a company who is the primary Sponsor of SBI/APBA, a rival racing organization who uses Innovation as their primary engine inspection and sealing source.
4.) Disqualification enhances the perception that OSS inspections are thorough and unbiased when the inspection was actually performed by Mercury, who has a vested interest in assuring the engines do not pass inspection.
5.) Disqualification will result in the sale of at least two additional new engine packages during a time when marine engine sales are at the lowest they have been in the past twenty years.
6.) Disqualification will discredit any future suggestions that engine inspection and sealing be performed by anyone other than Mercury.
7.) Disqualification will ensure that Mercury will benefit through increased sales of parts and services from future racing engine repairs and rebuilds.
8.) Disqualification solidifies Mercury’s position as sole source provider of new engines and supplier of repair services.
9.) Disqualification enhances the perception that Fountain boats win by cheating and all World Speed Records, National Championship, and World Championship Titles previously won by teams running Fountain boats are questioned as to their validity. In doing this, it undermines the sanctioning bodies from whom these titles where awarded…SBI and APBA…and legitimizes the very same titles awarded by OSS.
As for Innovation, my experience has been that they have always been fair and up front with every racer they have come in contact with. I am disheartened to see negative posts by other racers who only a few days ago where singing praises about Innovation. Where are your loyalties and of honor? 2.) Disqualification will cast doubt on the integrity of Innovation, a company who builds marine engines in competition with Mercury.
3.) Disqualification will cast doubt on Fountain Powerboats, a company who is the primary Sponsor of SBI/APBA, a rival racing organization who uses Innovation as their primary engine inspection and sealing source.
4.) Disqualification enhances the perception that OSS inspections are thorough and unbiased when the inspection was actually performed by Mercury, who has a vested interest in assuring the engines do not pass inspection.
5.) Disqualification will result in the sale of at least two additional new engine packages during a time when marine engine sales are at the lowest they have been in the past twenty years.
6.) Disqualification will discredit any future suggestions that engine inspection and sealing be performed by anyone other than Mercury.
7.) Disqualification will ensure that Mercury will benefit through increased sales of parts and services from future racing engine repairs and rebuilds.
8.) Disqualification solidifies Mercury’s position as sole source provider of new engines and supplier of repair services.
9.) Disqualification enhances the perception that Fountain boats win by cheating and all World Speed Records, National Championship, and World Championship Titles previously won by teams running Fountain boats are questioned as to their validity. In doing this, it undermines the sanctioning bodies from whom these titles where awarded…SBI and APBA…and legitimizes the very same titles awarded by OSS.
I believe that although Smitty’s engines had been worked before they arrived at Innovation, every effort was taken by Dave Stiff and his fine crew to assure they fell into the performance parameters of the Mercury 525. I also believe that this is nothing more than a smear campaign instigated by Mercury and condoned by OSS to further the respective agendas of each.
As for David Knight and Fountain, it is the general perception that Fountain has been, if not cheating, at the very least working in the gray areas of the rules for a long time. Fountain has an image problem, and as a publicly traded company, its time for some damage control. How should they do this? Endorse every suggested rule change that they have fought for the past three years. They should support the idea of publicly posting of the dyno sheets of every sealed racing motor so everyone can see who has how much power and torque. Support the “Race ECM” program where each team puts a new ECM on the trailer and draws their ECM from the pool before each race. Support the one ratio drive rule for SSM6 drives. Support…and initiate every idea that would remove the perception that Fountain is cheating.
Fountain builds one heck of a boat and has the best factory racing support program in the sport. They also field 80% of the V-bottom boats competing in Offshore. Numbers alone give them the advantage to be on the podium every race.
Sorry Smitty, it looks to me that you just got caught in the middle of a classic political and corporate mud slinging campaign. Its not personal…its Offshore racing.
Ken Doyle
To insinuate that the OSS is in some sort of alignment with Mercury to undermine Innovation or another organization is at best "idiotic". The racers and officials of OSS are ethical players who race and run the organization on the up and up.
My name is Stan Ware and my telephone # is 225 317 3367 or office 1 800 256 3662. 18465 Old Perkins road in Prairieville La.. I will not post negative post without knowing facts that will stand up in court. If you can"t do the same then you might want to consider that W?C. Fields observation, "never miss a chance to keep your mouth shut"!!
Last edited by Popeyes; 07-23-2006 at 06:34 PM.
