I am patiently waiting for a running engine:cool-smiley-027:


Ok If I may talk electrical and sound like a big Geek.

Two blue top optimas wired series for each turbine. (24volt)
Two blue top optimas wired pararell. Run boat. (12volt)

6 batterys total

12 volt pararell charged by bellhousing mounted alternator.
24 volt series batteries charged by Starter/ Generators on
turbines.

Using the standard key switches for piston engines.
Key on will turn all acc on. Also put 12 volt to the fuel solenoids.
These are comming from MARK-NYE a canadian company
which specializes in turbine boats.
They are elec 12volt coil which opens or closes the fuel to the
turbines. This is how we shut them down.

The crank position of the key switch will energize the fuel start solenoid.
There will be a momentary switch mounted right near the key switch
this switch will power the starter and ignitors.
After it fires you throw the start charge enabling the reverse current relay.
Now the charge 24 goes to series batteries. I should see volt increase on 24 volt meters.

This design will also allow the spool up compressor wash without fuel.

The idea of the start fuel solenoid on the key will allow the feature of shutting down the xtra fuel which will help if the pyro is climbing on a wanabe hot start.

Ok now that I spewed all this BS I will go to lunch.

What are you doin with the old powerplants? Wall decorations? :D

If the key switch has seperate terminals for 12v and 24v then no problem. May want the start fuel on a momentary on switch, it usually dosent take more than a couple quick flicks to start the motors. Otherwise it sounds simple; simple is good.

Final thoughts on steering pumps?

Just found the thread again; everything looks good. Brad.

Knot Right

this isnt a photo of your first water trial is it?:cool-smiley-027:

http://www.offshoreonly.com/gallery/...hp?photo=12536

There going to a good home:D

Steering pump will be piggy backed off the single 12 volt alternator.
There is only 12 comming off the key switch however I can
use a 12 volt marine solenoid to trigger the 24 to the contactor coils.

The only thing that will need 24 will be turbine spool up.
and whatever other 24 acc the turbine requires.

Your scaring me:p

Here is another look at the shifters.
I bought all new micro switches from Newark electronics.

Check them to see if I pinched any wires and shorted to ground.


I also got new coils for the air solenoids for the air over hydraulic brake setup.These are 12volt.


There are actualy two micro switches the second is
on the throttle so that it must be pulled all the way to idle
speed to engage the break.

Great thread!
I do not have any experence w/ turbine boats, but have been burning jet a for 20+ years in a/c.
I have a question and opinion.
1) Why 6 batteries? I can see a seperate 12volt system for the boat (although finding 24 volt systems for the rest of the boat may be not a bad idea), but 4 engine airplanes can do fine with ONE battery. That is a LOT of extra weight/complexity/cost. For multi engine installs, you start one engine, let the battery charge till you see the rate go down to what is appropriate, and hit the other starter. Then you get a cross generator start, providing a lower start temp on the second engine. You alternate which engine gets the first start.
2) The key switch thing: you do NOT want your start motor wired to a spring loaded switch. You let go at the wrong time during a start (or a connection gets goofy in the switch) and you will have an expensive day. If it were me, I would have a master switch for the entire boat controlled by a on/off key and solenoid, or just the start solenoids armed with an on/off key switch. But just a simple on/off switch for the starter. On most set ups, selecting off on the starter throws it over to a generator mode on the starter/generator. I have seen the aftermath of start interuped, and it 'aint pretty. You have enough to concentrate on during a start, don't make keeping the start circuit energized an extra that you have to think about. BTW, most installs in a/c have a "starter energized light" on the panel.
And, always make sure your batterie(!)s are 100% before you start! For lead acid you need to see 24 volts minimum ( I like digital readouts for this) before the start. You can get by with weak batteries on everything but turbines!

Fwiw....

I have the original Concorde 24 volt airframe
batteries.
But they are old. 99 I charged them and they came to life however like you said it needs alot of current.

I called concorde they list for $3300 each.
I can get the optimas for $125 each:D

I will have a 24 volt parrel switch to boost the start if needed.
I am series in two 12,s for the constant draw of all the
pumps and compressor on the boat.

The other batteries will be dedicated to the turbines.

I droped the Exhaust in today. And as I thought it will
interfare with the placement of the batteries for the
piston engine location.
The exhaust was way to close for comfort to the fuel pumps also. I will move them also.

Dumb question why is starting a turbine such a big deal ?

Was the battery you are quoting a ni-cad?
Because IIRC, you can 24 volt lead acid (acid mat type) for maybe $400 or so?
You certainly do not want nicad- major pita, especially for this application. I don't have any idea if the optima has a low enough internal resistance to be good for your app, but if others are using them, prolly OK.:cool-smiley-027:

yahoo- starting is not a big deal, but you have to be ready for when something goes wrong. Most of the time, thankfully, it is quite routine. But if you get half way into a start and the battery or starter drops off line, you have a lot of fuel, and not enough air, and you get what is called a "hot start", or maybe if it does not accelerate to idle speed, a hung start. Either of which can get expensive in a hurry. The burner cans in a turbine support the flame via the air blast running through the engine. If not enough air, the flame will start to actually touch the burner can, and burn right through it. On a start, you monitor fuel flow, acceleration, and temps carefully. If any are off, you have to be read to cut off fuel RIGHT now, and continue to motor the engine until the temps are down.

Also, I am curious. Is the fuel system being set up with a resivore and motive flow type pump with a continous loop system?

t53 l13 parts
 

hi,
do you know anyone or your self selling turbine parts, to complete a t53 L13b engine (marinize)?
thanks.

Not really that dumb:hitfan:

Its all about heat. Like Fast Algae stated.
If the turbine crank speed is not sufficiant the amount of air
flowing through will be low. So you have fuel alot of it
on start and not enough air will cause a hot start.
The turbine has a xtra start fuel. If this is controlable
at the cockpit if your Pyro starts to climb you can kill the xtra fuel this should lower the start temp.

Same applies on a hot engine.
Having the ability to completly cut fuel yet still be able to crank
(spool) would cool the turbine considerably faster.

It seems somewhat complicated but as long as you
keep your eye on your Pyrometer.

I,m sure I will become a freakin rocket scientist before this is all over.

Here is the one engine complete waiting for the Test Cell.
The other should be done by the end of this week.

That is AWESOME:cool-smiley-011:

How fast do you have to turn the turbine ? 2,000 rpm 's

doesnt it spin easy ?

Once again Im just curious

RPM's are not usually measured directly, but as a percentage.
So say the gas generator turns 40,000 rpms, that would be expressed as 100% Ng.
For start, usually somewhere around 10-15 percent before you throw the fuel to it. (ignition on FIRST!) Depends on the engine.
Here is an interesting fact, the compressor of a turboshaft engine eats about3-4 times horsepower of the output. So, if you are using a engine that will output 700 hp, the compressor will require somewhere in the neighborhood of 2200 hp or so.
The starter motor of these things are powerful, somewhere around 5-10 hp, maybe more.

Hope you don't mind me Knot Right, but it is turbine 101, right?

I beleave N1 (Gas producer) must be at close to 40% to fire.
N1 at 100% rpm is 25,400.
so that would indicate a speed of 10,160 of n1 to fire.

N2 is the Power turbine this at 100% spins at 21,074
this goes through a gear reduction reducing to 6,600
rpm. If I can spin my 38 Herrings to 6,600 hold on to ya
cuhnyangas:cool-smiley-026:

It will produce 1400 SHP Shaft rated horsepower
at t5 temp of 1720 farenheight. with SFC of .580lbs/shp/hr.


I am as green as a sick leprichaun.
I,m Just reading this from the T53 for dummies book that Jim sent me.:cool-smiley-027:

Here is a nice cutaway of the T53 L13B

Wow, lots of power!

812X2/6.8 = ~240 gallons hr. Of course at that continued power setting you will be going .81mach!

T-53-13 start sequence....

Actuate the starter motor
@12% N1 with spark ignitor engaged, introduce start fuel.
@15% N1 with positive indication of lightoff, Introduce main fuel at Idle detent position
@40-45% release the starter switch to disengage the starter motor. Disengage spark ignitor and start fuel. Allow engine to stabalise at 50% N1 idle speed.

The max EGT on the T-53-13 should be 650 C... dont have my calculator handy to translate that to F and it is waayyy to early in the morning for my brain to do math reliably.

I think you might have been reading the EGT (T5) limits for the -17 engine, or possibly the 703 there Knot Right. But a conversion of the temp will confirm that...

To answer the original question... they spin up quite easily.

Wow, this is a serious project.

Here is a link to another guy that did this. He was Helicopter mechanic and a pretty serious do-it-yourselfer.

http://www.turbinefun.com/My_Dream.asp

From the military manual:

The engine is started by energizing the starter, the starting fuel solenoid valve, and the ignition system. Starting fuel flows into the combustion chamber through four starting fuel nozzles and is ignited by the four igniter plugs adjacent to the starting fuel nozzles at the 2, 4, 8, and 10 o'clock positions. At 8 to 13 percent N1 speed, the fuel regulator valve opens, and main fuel flows into the combustion chamber through 22 fuel atomizers and is ignited by the burning starting fuel. As compressor rotor speed (N1) increases, the additional fuel mixes with compressed air and burns.

When compressor speed increases to 40 percent N1 speed, the starter, starting fuel solenoid valve, and ignition system should be de-energized. Combustion gases pass through the gas producer nozzle assemblies; impinge upon (strike) the blades of the gas producer rotor assemblies; How through the power turbine nozzle assemblies; and impinge upon the blades of the power turbine rotor assemblies. Approximately 60 percent of the gas energy passing from the combustion chamber is extracted by the N1 turbine rotors to drive the compressor, while the remaining energy is extracted by the N2 power turbines to drive the power shaft. The power turbine rotor assemblies are splined to the power shaft and secured by the power-shaft bolt. The power shaft is splined into the sun-gear shaft, which drives the output reduction gearing and, in turn, the power output gear shaft.

Even I can tell the difference from the yellow pages to the white:D

one more then I gotta get back to work on the boat.

Knot right

Do you have a job other than your boat? I really enjoy all of the detailed info you give us on this thread. Even though I have NO CLUE about trubines.

FWIW I think you are half way there....to becomeing a rocket scientist that is. Keep it up.

It also seems that you are going to beat some of your original projections of being on the water by Jan.

The combustion chamber may see temperatures up to 3500 degrees F. What Gerry is referencing is the Turbine Inlet Temp(TIT) which is after the gas leaves the combustion chamber and enters the turbine. The EGT (exhaust gas temp) will be down to 900-1200 degrees F range.

The 1700 range at the TIT is pretty normal.

Heat at the end of the compressor or at the relief band can be as high as 575 degrees F.

I think you guys would be amazed to find that the temperatures produced in a piston engine are pretty similar to the numbers we are discussing. The fire is just spread out over 8 cylinders.

I have not joined yet, so can not see the pics.
But I still am curious, does the fuel set up involve a header tank that has a motive flow (i.e., a "water bed type -no moving parts) pump that supplies a pressure head to the fuel control?

Come on Gerry, post some more pictures of your progress, looks like your doing a great job. Tom

Aeromotive A2000 with a return line
Fuel pressure gauge on dash.
Fuel/water seperater filter
adjustable 0-15lbs

Whaz up??


I had to enlarge the battery boxes.

For quick welds on aluminum I like the aluminator
Stick rods
Ya got to preheat it then it flows

After I spent 3 hours making these it accured to me that I could have picked up the phone and called Trick Marine
And bought 4 boxes.:rolleyes:

Ah what the heck I had nothing else to do.

I dont know chit about them eithier.:D
Thats what makes it fun!

By the time we are done with this nightmare
we should know more about them.

Special thanks to Ed Manion at Livorsi.
Great bunch of guys over there!

Got the other two already in the dash.

Here is a picture of the fiberglass work.
It aint no Peter Hledin job but it should work.

This does two things it will redirect the Idle sound
to the lower ductwork and force it through the forward hatches when the flaps are closed.
Second it will focus the incomming air right into the custom
turbine intakes.

I decided to go with the standard water puppy to
circulate the water through the oil coolers. This is for
no wake and Idle only.
I am still deciding if I really need blow off valves on the strainers. Think about it we use them for piston engines
because your standard Big block head gaskets and what not
dont like the high presure. It dont matter with the turbines.
They have no water.

Looks great!

The stainless plate helps deflect the air.
The turbine intake duct is retangular which meets
this hatch when closed.

Here is some pictures of what happens when Turbines
are not done right.

Here is some shots of my starters which cost
2500 each:rolleyes:These are the the 300 amp ones.

One of my Engines is complete and the other is almost done
and in the background.


Hopefully all will go well on the Test Cell this weekend.