08 Dodge Challenger
08-01-2008 | 06:42 AM
#51
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Auto Sales & Leasing
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 674
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From: West Chester, PA
Invoices are public info but there is hold back, and the profit centers in F&I and parts and service. Your argument seems to indicate that when times are good, the dealers won't use the ADMs which we all know is not the case.
The biggest and most successful dealers up here are the ones that have a consistent mark-up over invoice on their entire line whether that is 3,5, 700 or 1500 (or whatever)over invoice. People tend to hate the haggling and the trade-off tag teaming.
I am with Jupiter. I either wait, pre-order or make a few calls. GT 500s were $30,000 over MSRP up here. A day on the internet found the one I wanted for MSRP. I have a hard time feeling sympathy for dealers who do ADMs. As I said you can shear a sheep over and over but cut him only once.
The biggest and most successful dealers up here are the ones that have a consistent mark-up over invoice on their entire line whether that is 3,5, 700 or 1500 (or whatever)over invoice. People tend to hate the haggling and the trade-off tag teaming.
I am with Jupiter. I either wait, pre-order or make a few calls. GT 500s were $30,000 over MSRP up here. A day on the internet found the one I wanted for MSRP. I have a hard time feeling sympathy for dealers who do ADMs. As I said you can shear a sheep over and over but cut him only once.
Come on and think about it. Anything that is sold today cars, boats, tv's, washers, air conditioning units, heaters, snowmobiles, you name it, they all need service, replacement parts and sometimes financing. Get a plumber, HVAC guy or TV repairman to come to your house. You have a freakin' service charge just to get him there.
And guess what ....
YOU STILL DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT ITEM INVOICED FOR or WHAT MSRP WAS, BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE TO TELL YOU MSRP.
If auto manufacturers didn't have to put MSRP labels on their new vehicles, we wouldn't be having this exchange.
One more thing, try going to a used car lot or boat dealer and ask the dealer how much he paid for the item and offer him $100 over his cost. First of all, he's not going to tell you, secondly he's selling that item for what the market will bear. And that's my point. If you want something bad enough and HAVE to have it today, then it should be sold at current market value, whether it's invoice, below invoice or over MSRP.
08-09-2008 | 06:37 AM
#52
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Auto Sales & Leasing
Joined: Jul 2002
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From: West Chester, PA
Chuck, I'm with you all the way in your posts and I couldn't have said it any better. Most of you know that I'm not a new car dealer either, but I do work with them on a daily basis as a wholesaler and broker and I'll tell you this, they are getting their azzes beat right now.
The manufacturers have cut their profit margins so slim that they can't make any money on a new car. There's also the dealer down the street that will sell it for $100 less. Then, you have people wanting to trade in their trucks and SUV's and can't believe what the dealer is offering them. Hell, what dealer wants to throw the dice on these babies that are dropping everyday in price. I rep a lot of vehicles at different auctions for dealers and let me say this, some are taking a beating on vehicles that they traded 3 or 4 weeks ago, if in fact, I can sell them.
The one thing that always pissed me off was that the new car manufacturers give their dealer invoice prices to everyone. WTF?? They're everywhere, newsprint, magazines, internet, public restrooms, just seeing if you're paying attention. Anyway, this is pure stupidity and always has been. Try and find out the invoice on that Cig, Nor-Tech, Searay, etc. or a washer, refrigerator or a freakin' mattress. Now this one kills me. I sold a car to a guy who works for a major mattress chain. We got to talking and got around to what a mattress cost, because I was saying that I sometimes see 3 different stores right in a row. How can they make any money when their on top of each other. He tells me that some of the mattress sets that he sells for $3000 cost the store about $800(depending on the manufacturer). Nice profit. A car dealer makes nowhere near that much on a new car. AND compare the investment in their showrooms.
Back to the over list prices. Hey, if something is in demand and you can get a ton of money for it RIGHT NOW.....then You, Me, the Dealer are all going to take it. But I also agree that if a dealer has these cars sitting and is not moving them at over list, he better wise up. Because like all the others that were being sold over list at one time ALL COME DOWN eventually.
The manufacturers have cut their profit margins so slim that they can't make any money on a new car. There's also the dealer down the street that will sell it for $100 less. Then, you have people wanting to trade in their trucks and SUV's and can't believe what the dealer is offering them. Hell, what dealer wants to throw the dice on these babies that are dropping everyday in price. I rep a lot of vehicles at different auctions for dealers and let me say this, some are taking a beating on vehicles that they traded 3 or 4 weeks ago, if in fact, I can sell them.
The one thing that always pissed me off was that the new car manufacturers give their dealer invoice prices to everyone. WTF?? They're everywhere, newsprint, magazines, internet, public restrooms, just seeing if you're paying attention. Anyway, this is pure stupidity and always has been. Try and find out the invoice on that Cig, Nor-Tech, Searay, etc. or a washer, refrigerator or a freakin' mattress. Now this one kills me. I sold a car to a guy who works for a major mattress chain. We got to talking and got around to what a mattress cost, because I was saying that I sometimes see 3 different stores right in a row. How can they make any money when their on top of each other. He tells me that some of the mattress sets that he sells for $3000 cost the store about $800(depending on the manufacturer). Nice profit. A car dealer makes nowhere near that much on a new car. AND compare the investment in their showrooms.
Back to the over list prices. Hey, if something is in demand and you can get a ton of money for it RIGHT NOW.....then You, Me, the Dealer are all going to take it. But I also agree that if a dealer has these cars sitting and is not moving them at over list, he better wise up. Because like all the others that were being sold over list at one time ALL COME DOWN eventually.
Like I said in the last sentence above, which was only 9 days ago, "ALL COME DOWN eventually." Challengers were selling wholesale at $48k-$49k. Thursday's sale, they weren't breaking $45k. An Orange one sold for $44,750 and there were a few No Sales that I observed. So, if anyone is looking to buy one of these Challengers, hold off a little longer, they will come down much more.
08-09-2008 | 06:52 AM
#53
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,314
Likes: 1,556
From: Maryland
Yes, you are right. Invoice is public knowledge and why should it be? There's no other manufacturers that come to mind right now, that tell the public what they sell their product to their dealers for. That's complete Bull$h#t. Holdback, the same thing, not the publics business. F&I, parts, service, I guess all of us boaters don't pay for this stuff, it's free right? You don't think that a boat dealer sets up financing for free, do you or sells parts at his cost and oh yeah, the mechanics fix your boats for free.
Come on and think about it. Anything that is sold today cars, boats, tv's, washers, air conditioning units, heaters, snowmobiles, you name it, they all need service, replacement parts and sometimes financing. Get a plumber, HVAC guy or TV repairman to come to your house. You have a freakin' service charge just to get him there.
And guess what ....
YOU STILL DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT ITEM INVOICED FOR or WHAT MSRP WAS, BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE TO TELL YOU MSRP.
If auto manufacturers didn't have to put MSRP labels on their new vehicles, we wouldn't be having this exchange.
One more thing, try going to a used car lot or boat dealer and ask the dealer how much he paid for the item and offer him $100 over his cost. First of all, he's not going to tell you, secondly he's selling that item for what the market will bear. And that's my point. If you want something bad enough and HAVE to have it today, then it should be sold at current market value, whether it's invoice, below invoice or over MSRP.
Come on and think about it. Anything that is sold today cars, boats, tv's, washers, air conditioning units, heaters, snowmobiles, you name it, they all need service, replacement parts and sometimes financing. Get a plumber, HVAC guy or TV repairman to come to your house. You have a freakin' service charge just to get him there.
And guess what ....
YOU STILL DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT ITEM INVOICED FOR or WHAT MSRP WAS, BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE TO TELL YOU MSRP.
If auto manufacturers didn't have to put MSRP labels on their new vehicles, we wouldn't be having this exchange.
One more thing, try going to a used car lot or boat dealer and ask the dealer how much he paid for the item and offer him $100 over his cost. First of all, he's not going to tell you, secondly he's selling that item for what the market will bear. And that's my point. If you want something bad enough and HAVE to have it today, then it should be sold at current market value, whether it's invoice, below invoice or over MSRP.
Last edited by offshoredrillin; 08-09-2008 at 06:54 AM.
08-09-2008 | 07:42 AM
#54
OSO Moderator
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 3,580
Likes: 6
From: Virginia Beach, VA
Well in the electronics business you have the internet. There you can find product "fill in blank
" for less than real dealer cost. trouble is, most people then think:
A) They are buying factory sealed, first rate goods
B) LOTS of mark up in electronics
C) Local guys are ripping everyone off
D) They have a factory warranty
E) They can call the local guy to set up & service his purchase (esp after he picked the local salesman for info - then took that info and bought on-line)
Well, in every situation, you don't get something for nothing. Those cheapo sites sell refurbed / returns / or whatever. The mfg warranty is void, and if you get a UL approved item (this costs mfg's LOTS) you'll be lucky. MFG's set up internet dealers that are "approved" by the mfg - meaning they are selling you good stuff. Their prices are same as local guys because THERE ISN'T THAT MUCH PROFIT in the stuff. But like cars, the info you can glean on-line make people think they can get the stuff SO cheap. My advise to on line shoppers - Good luck. Your gonna need it. I've seen SO many people get bad internet deals; it make one wonder why you risk so much $$ to save 2 to 3 hundred.
" for less than real dealer cost. trouble is, most people then think:
A) They are buying factory sealed, first rate goods
B) LOTS of mark up in electronics
C) Local guys are ripping everyone off
D) They have a factory warranty
E) They can call the local guy to set up & service his purchase (esp after he picked the local salesman for info - then took that info and bought on-line)
Well, in every situation, you don't get something for nothing. Those cheapo sites sell refurbed / returns / or whatever. The mfg warranty is void, and if you get a UL approved item (this costs mfg's LOTS) you'll be lucky. MFG's set up internet dealers that are "approved" by the mfg - meaning they are selling you good stuff. Their prices are same as local guys because THERE ISN'T THAT MUCH PROFIT in the stuff. But like cars, the info you can glean on-line make people think they can get the stuff SO cheap. My advise to on line shoppers - Good luck. Your gonna need it. I've seen SO many people get bad internet deals; it make one wonder why you risk so much $$ to save 2 to 3 hundred.
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BillR
'00 Scarab Sport 302 CC
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BillR
'00 Scarab Sport 302 CC
'02 Cigarette Top Gun TS
'02 PQ 340
'00 PQ 280
'98 Scarab 22
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'72 Checkmate
'65 Glastron
Last edited by BillR; 08-09-2008 at 07:47 AM.
08-09-2008 | 01:33 PM
#55
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Joined: Apr 2008
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I used to be in the car business and it would crack you up the way people would come in and haggle on prices. But I would try to think, when was the last time I went to the market and threw $300.00 worth of groceries on the counter and told them I would offer $150.00. Internet shoppers screwed up alot of businesses too, along with the automotive. Shoppers are alot smarter now but sometimes they are too smart for their own good.
08-09-2008 | 03:27 PM
#56
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,820
Likes: 5
From: Turku, Finland
Like I said in the last sentence above, which was only 9 days ago, "ALL COME DOWN eventually." Challengers were selling wholesale at $48k-$49k. Thursday's sale, they weren't breaking $45k. An Orange one sold for $44,750 and there were a few No Sales that I observed. So, if anyone is looking to buy one of these Challengers, hold off a little longer, they will come down much more.
Or Dodge decides to cancel the whole Challenger Line....
How does that sound ?
Now tell me a single american car with performance to speak of after the gas crisis on 1973... does the history look familiar to todays situation? A recession, oil skyhigh and muscle car wars raging too...
Remember after all US automakers needs desperately US buyers because the rest of the world in general do not wan´t those gas guzzlers the big three makes. Never has never will...
Last edited by MikeyFIN; 08-09-2008 at 03:33 PM.
08-09-2008 | 06:36 PM
#57
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Joined: Apr 2008
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Or Dodge decides to cancel the whole Challenger Line....
How does that sound ?
Now tell me a single american car with performance to speak of after the gas crisis on 1973... does the history look familiar to todays situation? A recession, oil skyhigh and muscle car wars raging too...
Remember after all US automakers needs desperately US buyers because the rest of the world in general do not wan´t those gas guzzlers the big three makes. Never has never will...
How does that sound ?
Now tell me a single american car with performance to speak of after the gas crisis on 1973... does the history look familiar to todays situation? A recession, oil skyhigh and muscle car wars raging too...
Remember after all US automakers needs desperately US buyers because the rest of the world in general do not wan´t those gas guzzlers the big three makes. Never has never will...
It's pretty funny when you go to the port in Calif. The parking lots are still full of American Muscle Cars being shipped out all over the world even in todays market.
08-10-2008 | 06:22 PM
#58
Thread Starter
Auto Sales & Leasing
Joined: Jul 2002
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From: West Chester, PA
And what was the last car Finland manufactured? I seem to forget. Oh, thats right, they don't have one.
It's pretty funny when you go to the port in Calif. The parking lots are still full of American Muscle Cars being shipped out all over the world even in todays market.
It's pretty funny when you go to the port in Calif. The parking lots are still full of American Muscle Cars being shipped out all over the world even in todays market.
08-11-2008 | 03:02 PM
#59
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From: Boca Raton, FL
08-12-2008 | 12:54 PM
#60
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Posts: 34
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From: collinsville
Getting back to Mopar....the stock vette isn't all that, it can't out-run my SRT Charger (a buddy has one).......I did add a CAI and a Programmer/tuner but that's it. I've only been to the track once in my life and it was recently in the Charger.
4,445 lbs with me sitting in it
20 inch wheels, stock tires but lowered air pressure
4 door sedan
ran a 1.96 60ft, 12.9 @ 110 mph (with someone behind the wheel that has NEVER been to the track before)
Now the BMW 3's are sweet cars but the Charger/Challenger just LOOK like beasts.
4,445 lbs with me sitting in it
20 inch wheels, stock tires but lowered air pressure
4 door sedan
ran a 1.96 60ft, 12.9 @ 110 mph (with someone behind the wheel that has NEVER been to the track before)
Now the BMW 3's are sweet cars but the Charger/Challenger just LOOK like beasts.
