Don't totally discount it. Just do your due diligence. Spend some time and choose wisely. Ask around and find out the good and the bad about any perspective builder. There are quite a few good builders out there. Don't be afraid to go to the other side of the country to use a builder that you are comfortable with. Most guys want to stay close to home. That usually doesn't work out well. Sometimes it does, but more often than not, they start a thread like this.(not the case here though)
Most importantly.....DO IT ONCE, DO IT RIGHT. That is the best advice I can give you. If you can't afford to do it right, then don't do it now. Wait until you can afford to do it right. It will be money well spent in the end.
Eddie

I have the same boat exactly as Eric. Engines, year model, graphics, etc. The exact same! And also originally from Ducky's! So I read this thread with interest. WOW! A 2 hr read start to finish. But what a lot of great information. I sure hope this works out well and you end up with a great and fun boat. We have really good and stable bottoms on these 05's and I can't wait till you tell us how it feels at 115-120. As long as it's at RF have you considered getting the bottom blue printed?

Andy

I think he already had his ass handed to him and or I mean blueprinted !!!!!!

Yes thats right but rechecked while its there?

might as well, this far now like cancelled Planet Pluto for a journey

RF just did the blueprinting.

Sooooooo....what you are saying is that 5 re-builds in 5 years is not normal?? Could of fooled me....lol.

Like Triple 300's (aka Rainbow Warrior) said, RF blueprinted the hull several months ago. Now its just waiting for power....power that lasts more than 7 minutes. :evilb:

lol ok, I am not the one who bent over and took 5 rebuilds in 5 years...there is no way I am a rainbow warrior, you are the KING! you love Jiminey Cricket engine building...


http://ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies2/supergay.gifhttp://ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies2/supergay.gifhttp://ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies2/supergay.gifhttp://ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies2/supergay.gifhttp://ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies2/supergay.gif

I read the entire thread (took a few hours) last nite.

TRL, I feel really bad for you. I'm very surprised your in such good spirits and glad your keeping your head up.

As for as hurting engines goes, I'm not surprised with that fuel plumbing. I don't even need to see pictures of the hurt engine to know what it looks like as I've seen that happen lots of times on drag race engines. My opinion is that it wasn't a problem with Tyler's engine (long block) that he built. It was fuel starved, went lean, and popped.

I hope everything gets sorted out and comes out running strong. You definitely deserve some good luck for once.

There is no way it went lean. it was at 10.8 remember...:eek::lolhit:

I have been following this thread and I feel for u. Looks like u r headed in the right direction. I was wondering with so many problems and being in southern MO is there any reason you never went to Smith Power ?? Just asking out of curiosity not trying to start anything Again I wish you the best.

I know Smith Power and Tyson builds some wicked motors....but I have heard a few horror stories from that shop as well from a few guys that I run around with on TRL. Not saying anything bad about Smith...but when I "googled" YPM..I saw NOTHING bad about him or his shop. At this point in the game, and given all that we have been through.. we decided to go with a shop that we felt the most comfortable with...and that was YPM

UPDATE:
I just got off the phone with Eddie. We talked for almost an hr. I gave him the "green light" to move forward on the build. I will leave it up to Eddie to lay out the details on the build/parts/components. If he wants to share the specifics on build specs...then I hope he posts them.

As far as the laundry list of phucking train wreck issues that he ran into...I will ask Eddie to send me pics of what he found and I will decide what to post. However, I do hope that Eddie posts lots of pics on the NEW build.

Again, I appreciate everyone's interest in the build/thread. In addition, I really want to thank you all for the positive support throughout this entire process. I have enjoyed reading everyone's posts and I hope everyone following this has learned what NOT to do...and which engine builder NOT to use.
At this point I am still pulling back the reigns on how I would like to throw certain people under the bus. However, the further I get into this, and the more I find out...its a matter of time until I finally call certain people out....its getting to a point where I feel obligated to lay out the facts.

When I first posted this thread I had no idea that it would turn into one of the most widely viewed threads on OSO. I was so excited to brag to all the die hard Ftn. guys that we were the first offshore boat to be rigged by RF....and unfortunately it has come to this. As I have always said, they (RF) have done their part thus far...they just need an engine builder that knows WTF they are doing. I still have no doubt that once its all said and done..that the boat will be a screamer.

Eric

i have to say i'm quite impressed with the level of respect everyone has had, and resisted bashing all involved parties deserving or not until all the facts were straight and proven. must be hard keeping cool, good luck !

I bet the only thing youre gonna worry about next year is putting fuel in that thing every weekend. You're in good hands.

Jason you are next.

interested in this

and this

not the " throwing anybody under the bus" but how vast $$$$ are spent over and over without different results or what was overlooked and how these types of projects get derailed...

OR...and no offense to the big dreamers out there...keep it stock, keep it dry and indoors when not in use, keep engines sprayed with Corrosion X red, add marine Sta-Bil in the gas every time, and if run in salt water flush it for ten minutes per side, and you'll get to 400+ hrs. without a hitch. :drink:

Yeah but if I would of done that then look at all the entertainment/quality reading u all would of missed out on!!!! Lol

[QUOTE=On Time;3567048]OR...and no offense to the big dreamers out there...keep it stock, keep it dry and indoors when not in use, keep engines sprayed with Corrosion X red, add marine Sta-Bil in the gas every time, and if run in salt water flush it for ten minutes per side, and you'll get to 400+ hrs. without a hitch. :drink:[/Q

I've done all that and I still have to work on it. Conclusion: The only way not to spend money on a boat is to not own one.
Heck with that!

[QUOTE=1 MAIDEN AMERICA;3567132] Yeah we have been fortunate. I do play with it but really don't abuse my boat. I learned how to drive and take care of my boat from an old racer here in Houston area that used to run with Teague, Sanborn and "the" Reggie. He has an '02 42 with 575's and he's the safest guy around and we still always have a great time. His motto: "its not important that they run fast, its important that they run". :drink:

Did you know you were paying for Eagle parts?

Ummmm......no. I thought I was paying for 1000hp engines that would last for more than half a boating season....:lolhit:

I am still interested in your outcome!! Anything new? :drink:

I read this whole thread and have heard some nasty rumors and its really implied that you got a real screwing of some sort From Tyler Crockett. I decided to give him a call ( we are acquaintances and I have dynoed there before) and asked him straight out about the Eagle cranks and rods- Did you tell this guy he was getting high dollar parts and screw him by giving him inferior parts??? I got his side of the story- you wanted to turn your motors into 540's, you were pleading poverty, he gave you the option of high dollar parts or low budget stuff and YOU made the choice to have him use the Eagle stuff. He charged you 750 or 800 dollars for your Eagle stroker cranks and 500 dollars for eagle rods with upgraded rod bolts, YOU knew what you were getting and although Eagle would not be my FIRST choice I guess If I was trying to upgrade my motors on a LIMITED budget I wouldn't be scared to run the stuff at 950 hp. Your total hp numbers, although not BIG power YOU again would not spend more to upgrade from the heads you had to something that would make more power. As far as these multiple meltdowns, not sure what happened in past years, sounds like a screwed up mess. I heard Tylers response to what happened before you decided to go with a different engine builder, and I don't blame you in the least, you had ALOT of problems and at some point you have to try something different, a new set of eyes, what ever, I would be pretty mad IF I had a boat I couldn't use that kept breaking over and over again and I was at the mercy of other people. Lets talk about the fuel system your boat has on it. When Tyler flew down to see it the first time and try to tune it on the water did HE plumb your boat??? Um, no, all the other "experts" (I would consider the fountain boys to be rigging experts) thought the stuff would be minimum satisfactory but now Eddie rides in on his white horse and even though he don't want to throw Tyler under the bus he implies to everyone that your fuel system is Tylers fault. Tyler SENT you to RF to straighten your boat out and re-rig it IF neccesary, they must have felt the stuff was ok. When you went out and water tested your boat did the fuel pressure remain steady under wot, yes, so although not top notch the fuel fittings did NOT cause your boat to melt down again. After finally getting your boat on the water with Tyler in it he finally figures out you had a problem with your wiring harness on one motor, a knock sensor wire that was screwed up and a burn't pin on your ecu retarding your timing and sending your egts to the moon. It really sucks that it got hurt trying to find this problem but at least you finally have a reason this whole mess won't stay together. I hope that Eddie repairs everything and it will stay together and you can finally get some trouble free boating in, good luck, Smitty

I think it's time to post what else was "found" in the tear down...

At no point in time did I blame the fuel system on Tyler or claim it was his doing. Without looking back, I remember saying that the boat probably came this way from the factory since it was only a 525 boat.
I am only getting one side of the story. I don't know if it's correct or not. I really don't care. I certainly have nothing against Tyler. I've never met him, but I can't believe he got where he is by being stupid. The only problem that I have is that as a marine engine builder, you have to take the rigging in the boat into consideration. You can't just build an engine, ship it out and hope for the best without any consideration of the fuel system, water system, etc. Not saying that was the case here, but more should have been done. For any engine that I don't install, I will spend hours on the phone with the boat owner to be sure the engine has everything it needs. It doesn't matter how good of an engine you build, if the rigging isn't correct, it won't live.
The other item is the parts. If you aren't comfortable building an engine, then don't build it. I will not build anything with Eagle parts. That is my preference. I used to use a few many years ago on stuff around 600-650 hp, but I found the quality control had tanked. It's been years since I have touched one. I also know several builders that feel the same way and simply refuse to build an engine with Eagle parts. Whether or not they will last or not is beside the point. I don't believe they were made for that kind of power (1000+ hp) in a marine application. THey may be fine for drag racing, but not here IMO. I have turned away many jobs over the years that I wasn't comfortable with. I understand that everyone has a budget to work with. If they don't want to keep the power level comparable to the quality of parts they can afford, then I won't do it. Again, that is my choice. The money doesn't mean that much to me to ruin my reputation with a time bomb.(not referring to this)
I said from the beginning that I am not getting into the middle of this. I was not there to hear and see what transpired between the Seeleys and Tyler. Again, I don't really care. It doesn't concern me. My job is to build them an engine that runs. That's what I'm focusing on. I have not and will not throw anyone under the bus. Don't insinuate that I did.
Eddie

I was trying to keep this thread from going down this path, but leave it to someone who does not have a dog in this fight to put me in a position where the gloves are now off.

First, you are a misinformed moron. You know ONE side of the story...and it could not be further from the truth. Did you a happen to ask your acquaintance how many times he TRIED to re-build the motors over the last 4 years? The answer is 3. Did you also ask your nutswinging buddy what the solution was each time we would bring the boat back to him? The solution was..."Oh, maybe we should try this, try that, try, try, try"...and each time that try would cost us 30k....and here we are STILL with motors that are blown up....again.

Secondly, we had NO idea (ZERO, ZILCH NONE) that he was using crap Eagle cranks and rods. Why? Because we were never provided an estimate of any sort (Funny how I know EXACTLY what I am getting with YPM...cuz I have this magical document that professionals provide called an ESTIMATE)...I trusted Tyler with an open checkbook...shame on me. And the story of "pleading poverty"...is so far from the truth that its not even funny. Lets see...I own a 250k boat, with over 100k invested in rebuilt junk motors, and a tab still running at RF...yeah...Im really pinching penny's here.

Why would I send my boat to RF and spend the money to do what they have done if money was an issue? Oh, I know why....because the last 4 years it was being worked on by someone who kept phucking it up...thats why. Do you think that a few thousand more dollars for quality parts would make a squirt of pi$$ in the grand total of what we have sunk into this thing?

Next, the idea to go to 540's was NOT mine...again it was a "oh, lets try Dart blocks cuz the Gen 6 OE 502's haven't held together on the last 3 rebuild..so this will do the trick"....WRONG!!!! Again, here I am with blown up engines.

And finally, lets discuss what was discovered during the most recent tear down. 1. A zip tie was stuck between the head and block...I doubt this caused any issues. 2. The wiring looks like something that my 3yr old did. YPM sent me a pic of his finished wiring, and one of what Tyler did...and its an absolute joke as to what we paid for. 3. 3 of the pistons on the motor that recently blew up were non-coated pistons. 4. The whole Eagle crank/rod issue...(see above if you need a re-fresher on that whole ordeal)
I could go on...but I think you get the point.

In my industry people come to me and trust that we will provide them with a quality end product that they can enjoy for years. I dont expect my customers to be experts at what we do...the same should go for engine builders, or any other trade for that matter.
As a customer, I expect to be provided with a product that is built properly, delivered on time, by a builder who stands behind their product and does not make every excuse in the book as to why things went wrong...and to date we have NEVER got that product....EVER.

Regarding the fuel system...yes it is Tylers fault. This should of been caught on one of the last 3 re-builds...end of discussion.

In summary, I dont know who you are or why you felt it necessary to run your mouth about something you know NOTHING about. All I can surmise is that you feel compelled to try and stick up for your buddy....which is fine. However, in the future, before you make a fool of yourself, and spew inaccurate rhetoric about a series of events that you are gravely misinformed about...I suggest you get your facts straight....and stop trying to be a savior for someone who just needs to fess up to the fact that they made a series of botched engine builds.

Again, I apologize to all those who have been following this thread for it to have come to this. However, "Mr. I have an obligation to set Tyler's reputation straight", has forced my hand. I hope that we can all get back on track now and keep a positive outlook on the remainder of the build.

Eric

winter is here

thank god this thread will keep me going till the feb show and poker run

:party-smiley-004:

All the F-ing money you spent, you could have called my buddy Gordon Jennings and had a set of these delivered. Proby be tough to even run these wot in a 42




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnI_u...&feature=share

Point taken, sounds like a mess, Smitty

Eric if you want to keep this a positive tread then have your fan club move on also. What you all overlooked what caused the starboard motor only to burn up ( the port motor never got hurt ). The fuel system, water system, plumbing did not burn the motor up. When that boat came to me the very first time it had blowers on it with that wiring and fuel system in it and it always worked fine you never blew up or burned any pistons. You then had someone else put the new drives on and new water pickups on and how many times did we overheat the engines because they would air lock that was real good for them. After you put the new drives on you lost 10 MPH so the blowers were sped up to get some speed back and trying to make 9#s of boost and load those motors with that big heavy boat was asking to much out of those 525 bottom ends. We made 850 HP out of those 525 motors with the stock steel crank and never hurt it and that crank is no where near as strong as a Eagle 4340 crank. Eric I gave you a estament to replace the one block and go back to 502's or go with the Dart blocks so they have more cylinder wall and thats when you said what can we do to get more power and I said we could make them 540's and I sent you the est. We made 975 HP going to the 540 and changed the camshaft. That Eagle crank and rods with the 2000 bolts can handle that without any problems that is the engine builders preferance. I have had Callies and Lunati cranks that I spent 1500.00 on and had the not heat treated right and had them eat themselves in 3 hours but I can say I have not had a problem with the eagle. I have used 2300.00 Bryants and 3600.00 Winburgs but for 975 HP the eagle was fine. As for the 3 pistons not having the skirts coated we just do that to help on cold starts and we did not have time to send them out to get coated because you wrote a time shedule that could not be met like giving me 2 to 3 days to rebuild a motor, get pistons made, ship back because you already had your airfare to rerun the boat. Those 3 pistons don't have anything to do with the pistons burning up. The tie strap caught between the head well that had to be the Port Motor that you had Reggie pull the heads off to check the head gaskets and put head studs in I HAD nothing to do with... Whipple sent that wiring harness out with the blower kits I did not wire all that and it has been on their before the boat came to me. I sent the est to you and charged 800.00 each for the crankshafts and 505.00 for a set of rods with the bolt upgrade. When I charged 30000.00 to rebuild both motors their were a lot of extra parts like a power steering pump, welding heads, ex block offs. I will just put the invoice on here so everyone can see what you paid for and I did not rip you off. I hope Eddie gets the boat finished for you and everyone can move on.

Also I did not charge you for coated pistons.

I have read every post on this thread and yes it sounds like a mess. But, I have learned that there are 3 sides to every story.

TRL505, I hope you get to enjoy your boat soon.

Been watching this for a while now, and here's my view.

If it were me, I could'nt blame Tyler for the work he did, as I feel that he did what he was paid to do, and did it to the best of his ability. That being said, it sure does'nt seem to be fair to have anyone believe that the reason for failure was from the hands of Tyler.

Eddie, has given very (IMO) professional answers to any question he was asked, nor do I feel that he was throwing anyone under any bus.

I don't know any of the parties involved, but I feel that this is a bad situation that can be worked out with some input from knowledgeable builders without and further failures.
Good luck to all involved.

" As for the 3 pistons not having the skirts coated we just do that to help on cold starts and we did not have time to send them out to get coated because you wrote a time shedule that could not be met"


I have never heard anything so ridiculous in all my life. Did you only have a box big enough to send out five (5) pistons to get coated? Did they run out of coating material? Did you balance the rotating assembly with 5 coated and 3 uncoated? Is it your professional opinion that the 3 uncoated pistons did not need "help on cold starts" whereas the other 5 pistons needed such help? I would expect that kind of workmanship on an episode of "junkyard wars", but certainly not from a supposedly well renowned engine builder charging what you charged this man (and I do not even know Eric). Hell, I wouldn't even expect that kind of workmanship from a hack mechanic. I think you cooked your own goose with that statement. You work in a world in thousands of an inch and you are OK with turning over an engine like this and not letting the Owner know about it? Furthermore, I call BS on the "I was being rushed by the customer" excuse. You charged for a premium job, you were paid for a premium job, the man should have gotten a premium job.

I have read all posts as well and must say this is indeed a mess. Isn't it still unclear however as to what exactly caused the earlier engine failures? Statements were simply made that reported what was found at teardown, or in the engine compartment, but are there conclusions as to why the early failures occured?

I laughed at the tie wrap clamped in the head/block - I remember clamping a loose piece of old gasket once rebuilding my 1971 351 Cleveland 4V engine in high school but I found it on my final inspection AFTER the intake was torqued on and I cussed the entire time I spent tearing it back down!

You misunderstood the three pistons not being coated. When the engine was built it had 8 pistons that were coated when we tested the boat at Fountain we burnt 3 pistons. That three were the ones we replaced and the coating did not affect the balance. And I am going to say one more time it was only the Starboard motor that was getting hurt not both........... 10X made the best statement above and I am all done commenting on this thread. DENNY here is the schedule I had to work with Note I had 4 days to order 3 custom pistons, Build the motor and have shipped back out in 2 days they cannot even do that on junk yard wars !! SCHEDULE I would like to start off by thanking everyone for trying to pull this whole thing together last week. Even though it didn’t quite work out, I feel confident that we are moving in the right direction. Below please find a schedule that I put together, which I feel is doable…it will be tight, but if everyone tries to make this a priority then I believe we can accomplish the dates. Please advise if I am off base.



9-6-11 (Today) Stbd Motor ships out this afternoon from RF to TC AND RF ships all 4 headers to CMI



9-8-11 Motor Arrives @ TC (Headers should arrive @ CMI as well)



9-8 – 9-12 TC repairs Stbd Motor (TC will stud head on Stbd motor prior to shipping to RF…he will stud Port Motor when he returns to RF to tune)



9-12 TC ships motor to RF (PM Pickup @ TC)



9-14 Motor and Headers Arrive @ RF (TC flys into NC in PM)



9-15 – 9-16 TC/RF install head studs on port motor, install stbd motor, install headers, lake test, tune….etc.



9-16 Seeley’s arrive in NC late afternoon/evening



9-17 Rip **** on Pamlico river with everyone….(My driver/hauler should be @ RF by around 5pm….if my truck doesn’t **** up again. LOL.)



9-18 Seeley’s fly out of NC



Additional notes for TC/RF



Tyler:

Please order and install the MSD upgraded ignition you talked to me about on BOTH motors.
Remember to bring Port motor head studs with you or make sure to ship them to RF
Please test all injectors on Stbd motor like we talked about.
Test intercooler…just to be safe


RF:

Please have trailer gone through…brakes, lights, bearings, etc.


Thanks!