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Re: Comparable to Cig, Outerlimits, & Nortech
Originally Posted by Chuck
(Post 2016597)
I have a couple of friends with 32's and took a good look at John's F4. They seem to be great boats and from what I have personally seen they have the level of service that these types of toys should. Now Neil, just step up and get the 36 your dying for!!!!! :drink:
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Re: Comparable to Cig, Outerlimits, & Nortech
Anyone shopping for a new 38-40+ boat should look real hard at an F-4. I am not saying they are the best, or better than cigarette, outerlimits, nortech or any other manufacture. I am just saying they are a boat worth owning and a strong contender in the arena. I have never been a huge sunsation fan; until I had the pleasure of crawling all over one. I was on an F-4 the other day at the factory. These boats are built very well, attention to detail is absolutely incredible! I don't think it's fair when people come on oso and share their opinions and air dirty laundry about products without real world knowledge or experience, just what they have heard from others people...just doesn't make sense.
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Re: Comparable to Cig, Outerlimits, & Nortech
In general, it is hard for any company to spend years creating a certain niche or brand identity for themselve, and then try to quickly move themselves into a higher place within the market.
People will compare you to what you have built in the past. Many people are very familiar with the 28 and 32 Sunsations and will base their judgement of the F4 on that of the smaller boats. Since we are talking cars, this is why Toyota did not try to move the market with higher end cars, but developed a new name and brand identity... Lexus. Unfortunatley, boat builders produce less product and can not go this route very easily. The proof will be in the boat itself and how Sunsation continues to market their product. With that said, the Sunsation display at the Chicago boat show was that of a lesser builder. If you are going to move your product to a higher notch in the consumers mind, you have to do a better job of marketing your goods. The F-4 should have been a highlight of the show, rather than another boat squeezed among so many others. Perception = reality! |
Re: Comparable to Cig, Outerlimits, & Nortech
Originally Posted by Chris
(Post 2016623)
I don't think it's fair when people come on oso and share their opinions and air dirty laundry about products without real world knowledge or experience, just what they have heard from others people...just doesn't make sense.
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Re: Comparable to Cig, Outerlimits, & Nortech
Originally Posted by Boomer 880
(Post 2016644)
With that said, the Sunsation display at the Chicago boat show was that of a lesser builder.
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Re: Comparable to Cig, Outerlimits, & Nortech
Originally Posted by Beak Boater
(Post 2016588)
You just had to go their. We had gone 2 whole pages and Fountain wasnt even in this. Some how I just figured it wouldnt be long till the Fountain was brought into this.
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Re: Comparable to Cig, Outerlimits, & Nortech
In 2000 or 2001 (don't remember) a fellow boater, Andy Doin (sp?) also from Houston, came w/ us to the KW. We headed out Govt. Cut w/ fairly large rollers and the 32 Sunsation cracked wide open on the back 1/2 of the boat. Luckily, they were able to make it back to Monty's and tie to the dock to assess damages. The boat was not sinking and was actually boated back to Haulover and put on the trailer. It took a couple years for Andy to settle the issue.
2006, this past summer, a similar boat hit a ship wake in the Galv. Channel and sunk. No one was critically hurt, from my understanding. My next door neighbor is one of the $$$$ guys for Dave D., and from what I understand he likes the boats quite a bit. I see his demo just about every weekend pulling into and out of his slip in our subdivision. Good lookin' boats. Joe |
Re: Comparable to Cig, Outerlimits, & Nortech
Originally Posted by Boomer 880
(Post 2016644)
With that said, the Sunsation display at the Chicago boat show was that of a lesser builder. If you are going to move your product to a higher notch in the consumers mind, you have to do a better job of marketing your goods. The F-4 should have been a highlight of the show, rather than another boat squeezed among so many others.
Perception = reality! |
Re: Comparable to Cig, Outerlimits, & Nortech
Originally Posted by Tazz
(Post 2016592)
JS I have to respectfully disagree with about Lambos quality and reliability. I've owned many Ferraris and can tell you they have nothing on Lamborghini. You obviously don't have first hand experience.
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Re: Comparable to Cig, Outerlimits, & Nortech
Let's put it this way....You'll never hear a Cigarette, OL, or Nor-Tech dealer saying, "It's right up there with a Sunsation":rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Matter of fact, you'll never hear any of them compairing themselves to ANYONE! |
Re: Comparable to Cig, Outerlimits, & Nortech
Originally Posted by Nightlife1970
(Post 2016847)
And the only Cig I saw at the show was in what looked like the Baja space :rolleyes:
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Re: Comparable to Cig, Outerlimits, & Nortech
Originally Posted by Chris
(Post 2016623)
Anyone shopping for a new 38-40+ boat should look real hard at an F-4. I am not saying they are the best, or better than cigarette, outerlimits, nortech or any other manufacture. I am just saying they are a boat worth owning and a strong contender in the arena. I have never been a huge sunsation fan; until I had the pleasure of crawling all over one. I was on an F-4 the other day at the factory. These boats are built very well, attention to detail is absolutely incredible! I don't think it's fair when people come on oso and share their opinions and air dirty laundry about products without real world knowledge or experience, just what they have heard from others people...just doesn't make sense.
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Re: Comparable to Cig, Outerlimits, & Nortech
Originally Posted by thisistank
(Post 2016863)
Let's put it this way....You'll never hear a Cigarette, OL, or Nor-Tech dealer saying, "It's right up there with a Sunsation":rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Matter of fact, you'll never hear any of them compairing themselves to ANYONE! |
Re: Comparable to Cig, Outerlimits, & Nortech
Anyone who actually has crawled around the F-4 knows it's a well built and rigged boat. While the display sucked at the Chicago show the F-4 will sell itself and from what I seen, NOT because of price alone. I crawled over the Cig at the Chicago show as well for comparison as well as the Donzi's.
And puleeeeeze! Would some of you experts be bright enough to sink it in your heads there are two different 32' Sunsation hullls that are not even close to even remotely resembling each other, nor function anything like the other on big or small water. One is a PAD boat and one is not! Sheeesh! Joe and Wayne are humble people who don't need stunts or gimmicks to sell their boats. Stand up family that ARE THE EXAMPLE others should follow on how to treat a Customer. The half azzed flame job a couple are spewing are those with a agenda to flame, and that's it. If you had actually ever been to the factory and seen the attention to detail and the amount of pride built into the boats, then comment away, otherwise the he said she said chit should be reserved for builders who deserve it. Christ you'd think Sunsation is the only builder to have had hull failures the way a couple have carried on in this thread. :rolleyes: |
Re: Comparable to Cig, Outerlimits, & Nortech
Originally Posted by ZP'd
(Post 2017075)
Anyone who actually has crawled around the F-4 knows it's a well built and rigged boat. While the display sucked at the Chicago show the F-4 will sell itself and from what I seen, NOT because of price alone. I crawled over the Cig at the Chicago show as well for comparison as well as the Donzi's.
And puleeeeeze! Would some of you experts be bright enough to sink it in your heads there are two different 32' Sunsation hullls that are not even close to even remotely resembling each other, nor function anything like the other on big or small water. One is a PAD boat and one is not! Sheeesh! Joe and Wayne are humble people who don't need stunts or gimmicks to sell their boats. Stand up family that ARE THE EXAMPLE others should follow on how to treat a Customer. The half azzed flame job a couple are spewing are those with a agenda to flame, and that's it. If you had actually ever been to the factory and seen the attention to detail and the amount of pride built into the boats, then comment away, otherwise the he said she said chit should be reserved for builders who deserve it. Christ you'd think Sunsation is the only builder to have had hull failures the way a couple have carried on in this thread. :rolleyes: Ok..... But, what's your point? :D |
Re: Comparable to Cig, Outerlimits, & Nortech
The 32 SS I saw at the Houston Boat show and it looked like 80’s or 90's Baja with nice gauges. In my opinion you get what you pay for....
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Re: Comparable to Cig, Outerlimits, & Nortech
I would love to see them build a race boat for SV or F1. Sunsation promotes itself as a World Champion Powerboat but doesn't have a real race team. That is too bad.
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Re: Comparable to Cig, Outerlimits, & Nortech
2 Attachment(s)
Originally Posted by Boomer 880
(Post 2016939)
Grand Sports sells both Baja and Cig, so they are always displayed in the same booth. However, you will always see the Cig on the outside 'hallway' of the display, so one can see the entire boat as they walk the show.
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Re: Comparable to Cig, Outerlimits, & Nortech
Originally Posted by thisistank
(Post 2016863)
Matter of fact, you'll never hear any of them compairing themselves to ANYONE!
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Re: Comparable to Cig, Outerlimits, & Nortech
Originally Posted by Wahoo ATV
(Post 2017096)
I would love to see them build a race boat for SV or F1. Sunsation promotes itself as a World Champion Powerboat but doesn't have a real race team. That is too bad.
Cigarette and Nortech do not have factory teams currently either. They won a championship with their 32 a few years back. I don't honestly follow racing/ classes/ manufacturers racing efforts too closely. Racing is expensive when factory support is given and they only built 100 boats a year so I can see why any manufacturer would want to think twice about factory supported race teams. |
Re: Comparable to Cig, Outerlimits, & Nortech
Having no first hand knowledge about the F4, but having owned both a Baja and a Sunsation, I will say the Baja rode much better, but was slower. Rigging of the two is comparable. I liked Baja's in gel graphics better than Sunsations paint ( personal opinion ). Baja had a full fiberglass molded rear seat instead of fiberglass and carpeted plywood like my Sunsation, Baja had pop up cleats, unlike the sunsation w/ the recessed cleats that hold water and collect dirt no matter how anal you are about keeping your boat clean. Sunsations cabin is nicer than Baja's boring setup. The dash / cabin entry on my Baja was superior in strength / fit / finish compared to the Sunsations. I don't know to what extent you can customize a Baja from the factory, whereas everything from power to paint to gauges can be customized at Sunsation, and Sunsations customer service is world class. I have not had the chance to look over an F4, but from what I have seen, they look very nice, wish I had gone to the AC show to see it first hand.
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Re: Comparable to Cig, Outerlimits, & Nortech
Originally Posted by crb76
(Post 2017088)
The 32 SS I saw at the Houston Boat show and it looked like 80’s or 90's Baja with nice gauges. In my opinion you get what you pay for....
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Re: Comparable to Cig, Outerlimits, & Nortech
How can you crawl on a boat at a show and tell how it is made. All you are going to see is what is visible.
At a boat show, can you tell: The lay up? Coring? Proper buiding technique? Thickness of the hull? Placement and thickness of all stringers? How the fuel tank is mounted? Thickness of hull? All wiring and how it is secured? Exposed FG in bilge? How certain modules are tabbed in and if they are tabbed in well? Are there voids in the lay up? NO, all you can see is what the rigging is like and the finish the MFG wants you to see. If any MFG wants to imply they have a decent product, they will obviously do thier best in making what you CAN see - look as if they are a top notch builder. It's easy to run wires straight in the bilge and attach a clamp every 12". It's the small details that make a legendary builder. For example, Cig uses grease on just about every nut and bolt; so after a few years it is not dissolved by corrosion and it is still removable for any necessary service. I have not owned a Sunny, but have ridden on one briefly. They SEEM like nice boats. Now I have ridden my Cig extensively. There really aren't many boats that are comparable to a Cig. To compare a Sunny to a Cig, OL, NT etc., with out owning one of each is ignorant. Trying to say a boat like a Sunny is compare what you have "seen" from other marques at a boat show is a funny joke! |
Re: Comparable to Cig, Outerlimits, & Nortech
Cigarette may not have the fastest hull, but they still remain as the best built performance boat, period.
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Re: Comparable to Cig, Outerlimits, & Nortech
Originally Posted by ZP'd
(Post 2017075)
And puleeeeeze! Would some of you experts be bright enough to sink it in your heads there are two different 32' Sunsation hullls that are not even close to even remotely resembling each other, nor function anything like the other on big or small water. One is a PAD boat and one is not! Sheeesh! are the 32's not built by the same people as the f4? are the 32's built with different materials as the f4? |
Re: Comparable to Cig, Outerlimits, & Nortech
Why isn't Sutphen ever mentioned. I think they are one of the better built boats . Maybe speed isn't great but everything else is. I understand I may sound biased but I've owned them for 17 years with no complaints.
PS. You can get the owner and builder on the phone when needed. |
Re: Comparable to Cig, Outerlimits, & Nortech
Originally Posted by pm203
(Post 2017212)
Cigarette may not have the fastest hull, but they still remain as the best built performance boat, period.
And this is based on your extensive knowledge of how every offshore boat in america is built? NK |
Re: Comparable to Cig, Outerlimits, & Nortech
I am talking overall. From hull layup to electricals. from rigging to fit and finish. Cigarette has been doing it for a long time and they do it well.
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Re: Comparable to Cig, Outerlimits, & Nortech
Originally Posted by Jupiter Sunsation
(Post 2017103)
They all do direct comparisons, atleast the salesman do in order to point out their strong points and the competitors weaknesses. Attend any boat show and ask how does your product stack up against xyz brand and you will hear the comparisons.
The original quote from Drypipetiger, He said, "Our boat is not the cheapest boat out there but I think it is one of the best built in the market. Our competition is Cigarette,Outerlimits, and Nortech when it comes to an apple to apple comparison." Yes, if you ASK a dealer to compare boats, of course they will. However, if you call Cigarette or a Cig/OL/Nt dealer, they're not going to say, "our boat is compairable to....." The simple fact that any brand of boat has to sell themselves by comparing their strong points to ANY other brand of boat is enough for me not to want to buy said boat. Why wouldn't you just buy the boat they are compairing too?! |
Re: Comparable to Cig, Outerlimits, & Nortech
The comparisons, other than the companies intention to compete in this high end market are really pointless in my opinion.
Have any of us piloted this new boat and compared it to the others? It's like comparing cars perceived to be in the same league with 0 road time. My Lamorghini was far supperior in every way from quality and performance to my Ferrari, my "first hand" owners personal opinon . The Ferrari mystique and marketing machine left me quite dissapointed when compared to my Lambo. And as much as my Cigarette was a quality built and very nice ride, a good bit of its marketing 101 in my oppinion. I guess at this point we will have to wait and see how these new rigs perform and hold up for the next few years, they look to be a first class ride. |
Re: Comparable to Cig, Outerlimits, & Nortech
Originally Posted by SCARABJ
(Post 2017229)
been on both, nice little boats.....are the 32's not built in the same factory as the f4??
are the 32's not built by the same people as the f4? are the 32's built with different materials as the f4? |
Re: Comparable to Cig, Outerlimits, & Nortech
Originally Posted by SCARABJ
(Post 2017229)
been on both, nice little boats.....are the 32's not built in the same factory as the f4??
are the 32's not built by the same people as the f4? are the 32's built with different materials as the f4? |
Re: Comparable to Cig, Outerlimits, & Nortech
Originally Posted by SCARABJ
(Post 2017229)
been on both, nice little boats.....are the 32's not built in the same factory as the f4??
are the 32's not built by the same people as the f4? are the 32's built with different materials as the f4? |
Re: Comparable to Cig, Outerlimits, & Nortech
Originally Posted by Mentalpause
(Post 2016575)
The base issue with this thread was until the F4, Sunsation never tried to play with these other brands. And never claimed that they were trying.
The F4, in my opinion, is the first attempt by Sunsation until now to play with some of the top tier builders. Knowing what materials are in this boat, which most people here are just speculating, they clearly raised things up several notches. I was with the boat the day Mike Fiori went through it with a fine toothed comb. I know exactly what Mike said to Joe, and POS was NOT it. There are some features you can't find on other boats. Does that mean they will be successful playing at this level...none of us knows that yet. But time will tell, and I know it is a great boat. I am not saying anything about the other boats, I think they are great boats also. But they are off to a good start - they have orders to take them into 2008 so that is not a bad thing. |
Re: Comparable to Cig, Outerlimits, & Nortech
How about we take this thread in another direction, the original thread was about comparing the f4 to nortech cig, and outerlimits. I have'nt been on any of these boats to go over them with a fine tooth comb. So I can't give a qualified answer.
How about we take all 4 boats in similar models, get the list price for each of them and then compare what actually makes one better than the other, and what you actually get for the extra money with these boats. I'm talking about construction techniuques layups etc. Does it really cost that much more to lay up an outerlimits as compared to the F4?? Maybe it does maybe it does'nt. If there is someone that is good with computers maybe they could make a spread sheet so we could make comparisons on the models rather than just being cheerleaders for the brand we own. |
Re: Comparable to Cig, Outerlimits, & Nortech
Originally Posted by Mentalpause
(Post 2017377)
Same factory, different teams, different lay ups, different materials. It is a waste of your time to try to make that comparison.
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Re: Comparable to Cig, Outerlimits, & Nortech
Originally Posted by pm203
(Post 2017305)
I am talking overall. From hull layup to electricals. from rigging to fit and finish. Cigarette has been doing it for a long time and they do it well.
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Re: Comparable to Cig, Outerlimits, & Nortech
Originally Posted by RonS
(Post 2017448)
the original thread was about comparing the f4 to nortech cig, and outerlimits.
That is incorrect. I inquired about the 32 SS. The statement was in response to my inquiry into the 32 SS. My inquiry had absolutely nothing to do with the 43... Just for the record. |
Re: Comparable to Cig, Outerlimits, & Nortech
Take a good, close look at an F-4 and please point out an area on the boat that is not on PAR with the other players listed. Miami would be a great place to do this as Sunsation will have 2, F-4's (including the one on Powerboat's cover this month) there and their booth is right next to Nor-Tech's. The three players listed did not get to where they are overnight in terms of status in the industry. Neither will Sunsation on there new products and direction. Give them a fair shake in proving their worthiness in the market they are attempting to enter. With that said, the "human nature" aspect of it is the new kid on the block will initially be admired for being fresh and different, but after actually entering the ring of competition the skeptics start howling, the nay-sayers loyalists (doubting Thomas') begin their campaign of resistance to change or new ways. Sort of like (since cars are everyone's favorite analogy) Toyoto in it's infancy, who has now overtaken a few giants and sits at #2 in the world soon poised to be #1 in automakers regardless of the Ferrari's, Lambo's, BMW's of the world. How about we do what "Knot-4-Me" suggests and take a look at it, maybe even ride it, before all the blue eyes start screaming how the brown eyes are inferior (remember that old psychological test of children in the 1960's?). I think the true test is not now, or next year, it's where it's at 5 to 10 years from now in terms of sales, and field exposure out on the lakes, rivers (where most of the big bad boats on here roam bullying the Regals and Bayliners, developing their bad-boy reputations) and more importantly where real offshore boats are tested, on the real "3-4-5-6 footers" i.e. saltwater. In the meantime the young punk boat is threatening to take some of the glitz away from the old school boat makes, and that's the natural progression of things. In the end they're just boats packaged really well, all of them. Inevitably they're all enjoyed by thousands of happy campers and that's the realistic bottom line. The best way of looking at it I think, is it's another great option when looking to spend big $$ vice only having a couple of models to choose from. Of course the reality is most on here are used boat buyers in the 38 and above range, heck less than ft than that actually, very few can reach out and buy new at that size (at least of the "big three"). So a lot on here won't even be able to consider an F4 or OL, NT, new Cig etc. being built today for another 5 years when they're older at a used price, like much of the Cig owners now. Also it always confounds me to listen to the aforementioned 32's get compared to the bigger boats more than any other boat in it's class. But i guess that's complimentary in some strange weird way....:et: :chimp: Again it's the new kid on the block phenomena. Now don't whup up on my comments too bad, it's just an opinion and no one specific was insulted...I don't think...:p |
Re: Comparable to Cig, Outerlimits, & Nortech
Originally Posted by AIR TIME
(Post 2017461)
I'd say OL, seen cigs with stress cracks before, but not OL, I have seen a lot of boats with stress cracks, broken stringers, and they are equal too cig .some say there the fastest. So give a F4 a chance:D .
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