Mark is a nice guy and apparently an astute businessman. He's just not the guy that pops to mind when one thinks of Apache- not the old-school, glory days of Apache. Bob Saccenti on the other hand is what I think of. He's one of the godfathers of the offshore boating industry. I think about him building those magnificent 41's and those absolutely outrageous 47's and then winning all thsoe races.

When someone sends me a video where T2x is saying "...the magic throttle arm of Mark McManus...", then he'll be Apache to me.

McManus didn't start Apache nor did he ever have any vision beyond what he's doing today. He's a guy who, regardless of the version of the story you subscribe to, ended up with what was left of Apache after the government disposed of it. That doesn't make him a bad guy. It doesn't qualify him as a legend either.

When I think of Mr Apache, I think of Ben Kramer.
Unfortunately, when I think of the murder of Don Aronow, I also think of Ben Kramer.

Bob Saccenti was the best rough water throttleman I have ever seen.


Just who did build all those magnificent 41's and 47's?

Chris, you say it much more eloquently than I can.... At least one person knows the story..:ernaehrung004:

Holy crap, speedo and I agree on something! :ernaehrung004:

First ones were built by Bob and his team....they put the name on the map.


So anyway.......anyone remember the "Apache - What's in a name thread from years ago?" Even when the man himself told the story some still refused to believe it...:hitfan:

That's all I have to say about this...it's exhausting....I'm gonna go back to enjoying life and taking rides on my Apache! :cool:

I think you have misunderstood the actual facts. Exactly which boat did Mr. Saccenti build? He raced in a 41,and there is some cool videos showing him running the boat flawlessly, but still, I do not think he built it, and if he did, that was the only one. Mr. McManus was the man behind the success of the Apache brand and introduced the wild and tricked out Apaches that made the brand popular.

Are you sure?

Beautiful powerboats!

Is this one?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=PZ_gm9XSEWE

Where? Bob Saccenti and all the people who were there.

I'm not sure where you get your information from but as recently as last June you weren't even aware that Mark McManus was still in the boat business...

On purpose (like the devil reading the bible)...:ernaehrung004:

With the offshoreboat business/racing being still in it´s infancy/minority I understand your point.
Not so with auto racing..there a engineer / crew chiefs etc have their positions....and the mechanics and drivers their own. Also they rely mostly on measured data not just how it feels, like boat builders even to this day.
I´d say blow boat racing is using more data in their tuning than anyone regarding boats.

And I think regarding racing you can´t be a fix it all.
I thought I was once one but I´ll stick to wrenching.

And I think you haven´t done your homework or have a hard time understanding what you read from reading at your reply´s...

Even I here up and far northeast KNOW that Bobby S built the first Apache of them all, using the Squadron XII 39 mold.
The red hull white deck boat with Squadron logos and Apache written on the sides raced by Jerry Kilpatrick and throttled by...Bobby S.
He also built at least the first 41 (Warpath) how much Don was involved we can only guess but being so close I´d say a Lot.

Like the man said himself even here on OSO ..he didn´t have the 41 hull ready in time and had to use a Cig 39 mold which he also states that the particular boat rode rougher because of the wider strakes compared to a Cigarette 39 and A Squadron 39 had those wider strakes.
But looking at a regular Squadron XII 39, Kilpatricks Apache has raised gunnel's so the deck is different so it´s an Apache.
Where is it now??

Amen.
But the Brains behind Apache was Bobby S, Mark M and Don Aronow.
Ben just provided the money and LISTENED as a schoolboy should.
In the end he didn´t like being in that position and all went ****creek and McManus being the optimist he is tried to save the tribe which will never be the same.

Yiiihaaaa...someone else has also seen the light!
Being a tinkerer like I am and part of the hobby for me is to get my hands dirty I like to look at projects and therefore comparing Apaches to others.
They ain´t for the hardware/materials included and the performance that comes with it priced hard but realistic IMO.
Despite where can you buy a similar sized 90+mph boat for 250K or less if not an old Apache (racer) or easier, the upkeep and running is then another thing.
The hard way would be to look for/build a boat with surface drives or another race boat and not be sure the project would turn out good...
At least there´s a lot of Info about rigging Apaches right here, try that with a Larry Smith 377 or a Formula with Kaama/ASD´s
IMO those are on also on top of the food chain (and my wish list).

I´m sure this I´m telling won´t bump the prices of old projects as not many are capable of pulling them together.
I´m not that sure about myself either but I have a dream...someday A big rooster tail will follow me And I´ll be proud as a Cock.

Chris, stole this one from your album...:cool:

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e123/CTS1489/1.jpg


Another beauty...
http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/a...6&d=1189518063

Who built/rigged the first Top Gun?:food-smiley-007:

Was the first Apache really a 41? ;)

i will bet that this is correct..........any takers?????????

The first Apache is that 39 Squadron XII pictured above. The first Apache-built Apache came from the Aronow-designed & suppied 41' mold.

My guess is the first Top Gun was built by Cigarette ;)

Rumor has it that it was a 33' also called Warpath...:hitfan:

How arethings in the windy city?!

Was talking to your ole friend yesterday...seems him and my pop knew some of the same people growing up. :ernaehrung004:

small world.....seems no takers on my bet....will make it interesting....5 to 1 odds...any takers in the mcmannis camp...talk talk talk.......i was there.....

whos missing????????

He was snapping the pics? :)

The way I understand the story, Bob was waiting on getting the molds from Don but needed to get a boat rigged & racing. They used a Squadron hull. I have a videotape somewhere of the first Apache raceboat- it was at a race and Aronow was talking about how the boat performed. It won the race in a big way. He attributed the performance to the boat's length of 41'. He claimed it was the magic length to "bridge the waves". I haven't watched it in many years- it's on Beta.

Don't know the story behind the 33. They wouldn't have built that boat for competition in APBA Open class as it would have been 2' too short for the class. I can't imagine Ben Or Bob being interested in running a 33' V-bottom with 350 small-blocks in Modified.

it had 482s and they did race it in the real early days....17th ave days where bob started apache...tom evans was the original boat builder/rigger. when sales took off ben moved him to the fort and got marc to reduce the production cost and time..cut corners so to speak..

From what Bobby told me my boat was built at Race Headquartes. Originaly with big power big blocks for its day and ran mid 90's. This was in 1983. Would this be before the move? He also stated most of the 33s were built at other shops.

YES,Fountains are faster
YES,Outerlimits are faster
YES,Cigarettes are faster
But the ride is what counts in rough water.If you boat in calmer water and you want to go fast,the others are great.

True story:
Last summer we did a poker run on the bay,about 90 boats of all sizes and shapes,great fun.As the day went on the water got 4-5 ft in some places.At the end of the day people in other boats of equal size and bigger stated how rough it had gotten.My wife looked at me and did not understand what they were talking about.In calmer water they were faster but not at the end of the day????

"There's your sign"

I'd love to know more about the 33's. Antbody know how many were built?

Sent a message, let me know if you recieve it!:ernaehrung004:

Did he build any of these?

or these

how about these

Lucy, I tried emailing you but it bounced back.

Here's my address; fungarten1 @ verizon . net

take out the spaces...

Frank

how about these Apache's

May wanna find out more info about that yellow one...:hitfan:

It is a beautiful powerboat, I see it in Clark NJ. That is all I know about it.

Those are my favorite stories to hear.:D

Ok now that this has become an educational thread can someone tell me what James Caan played in all this? I read once he was a backup driver but don't know if it was a joke? There is also a video(Apache offshore challange) with him in it talking about the boats.

At that time he was the chief inhaler/snorter of some of the products that the kramer family "imported" plus I think he owned the boat (apache offshore challenge). lots a stars back then.