With all due respect...... what is, or was Kemosabe? Where did/does it race...?

The two best Apaches of all time were the Kramer Saccenti 41....and Richie's Apache Heritage. IMHO. Both won multiple championships against World Class competition....back when that actually meant something.

T2x

Kemosabe is a privately owned 47 Apache. It does not race. Many knowledgeable Apache people.....Steve Nykamp, Mark Adams among them say it is the best balanced, best running Apache to date. I believe them.
As for the others you mentioned, yes, they are fantastic powerboats. Combined with driven, talented, fearless offshore race teams. If true open ocean racing were to come back, I think Apache would do well on the rough days. It would certainly be exciting.

Addicted To Speed !
 

Once you drive a cat you'll never go back! :cool-smiley-027:

To rough water.

Comanche:

.... I knew Ben Kramer pretty well, so I can speak with some first hand knowledge regarding Apache Hulls.

FYI.. at the end of his career, he was totally into cat development. He built the Mike Peters designed John McCall constructed 41 foot Apache cat in 1986, from which the later glass hulls emerged. That same year he commisioned Conquest (my company) to provide him with a completely different Linder Design cat hull (a project cut short by his trip to "camp"). I personally gave him the line drawings for that boat at Marathon in '86.

Not many people know that the four engined 48' aluminum Cougar Superboat, "Eric's Reality", was also commisioned by Ben right before he became a guest of the Federal Hotel System. It is also a fact that there was no real development going on regarding any new designs on the vee bottom side of Apache. So it is clear where even Ben was heading along with anyone else who truly understood (understands) the vast difference between the older Vee technology and the cats. As a matter of fact even Aronow's last designs were cats.... bad ones, but cats nonetheless.

IMHO the 41 Apache is the best rough water vee hull ever designed. Beyond that anything over 40 feet becomes a simple spanning exercise.... 50 feet is better than 40 feet...and 60 feet is better than 50....etc. There is no doubt that a 100 foot monohull is better than a 40 foot cat in the rough water that any 40 footer ordinarily runs in, but can a 40 foot monohull make the same claim? Many boneheads have this picture of "Perfect Storm" size waves with sturdy Apaches climbing up the face while burning the raging testorone from the loins of the fearless owner driver...and in truth a similar length cat owner might not try the same water... The reason for that is simple... Cat owners are smart enough not to go out in that sh*t...:D

There is no doubt that there are far more vee manufacturers and vee hulls on the water. Vees were introduced almost 20 years before cats and had a heck of a head start. This has created a rather tilted marketing structure based primarily on the obvious numbers and, secondarily, on the better living quarters in most vee hulls versus Cats. The safety, rough water, and speed issues are simply baloney subtly supported by the golf shirt wearing vee bottom marketing types and frequently ill informed barside discussions among vee owners (" I never been in a Cat, but I hear they flip!"). Couple that to the fact that a number of guys with little more than big checkbooks and egos have put themselves into the 120 plus MPH club without any experience or skill set, and most have done this in cats....sometimes too small and sometimes simply too fast.... but too many with disastrous results.....and Voila!.... the insurance companies ran for the hills.

The truth is that this is like comparing a Ferrari and a Lincoln with the argument that far more people get killed in Ferraris at 150 mph than in Lincolns......and then claiming that, based on these "facts", Lincolns handle better at high speed.

This whole issue is, was, and always will be short ( no reference to Reggie implied or intended:p ) sighted and a haven for subjective thinking.

T2x

That was worth a good laugh.

Nice Post !

I agree....:D:D:D

That is where you are wrong with the proper training a cat will turn harder than a v will ever think about. This is a misconception that a lot of people had including myself until I took the tres martin performance boat school

wow
 

Oh boy, T2x just sat down and banged out 530 or so words, BTW I do like the way you can work Reggie into almost any conversation. and you are right,, there are many more Ferrari accidents then Lincoln accidents at 150 MPH,,

They are that smart in NJ. LOL!

You're pretty funny for an OLD guy :p

I sure would like to see that Thor or yours if you ever find yourself on Texoma. I see your in Dallas. What lake do you boat on?

Take a ride in a big V, then go take a ride in a big Cat, both in rough water. I'll stick with the Cat. It's as smooth as a town car! :cool-smiley-027:

T2x.....put away the buggy whip..........geez!!!!!

Dallas, Georgia. btw the thor turns harder than ANY boat i have aver been on.

I could not agree with you more. There will always be this debate, however, because (i) many "v-guys" will never get an opportunity to ride in a cat that is being driven by someone who knows what they are doing; and (ii) even if they do, they will be too proud to admit that a cat hull is better. I switched from v to cat 3 years ago and have not looked back. For performance and ride, at high speeds, the cat is without equal.

As for a v turning harder than a cat, I too used to believe that (even after I had bought my cat) until I had the pleasure of running a 28 Skater stock class outboard with Kirk Dunteman - he taught me how to make that boat do things I didn't believe it would do... and safely at that.

I agree i had the same experience running with Tony Caligure, then with Terry Ayres I couldn't believe how hard you could turn that 28 skater. Then when you start learning how to powerslide it in calm conditions , it's almost like drifting !:D Too cool ! You can see some of the guys doing it on the class 3 race video over in dubai .

Hey Stainless you must go back quite aways...willie diaz in elboss...the guy who built the motors for him back then builds our SUPERCAT motors NOW. Chuck Cice from United racing in Miami..He is now in Ohio.

hey tony how's it goin' i met you a few yrs ago when you were racing the old don q skater with terry. My 328 skater was right next to your 388 when they were getting rigged out at skater

Sorry Byrider, but Keith Eichkert, not United, built the engines for the El Boss Shadow Cat........ United did build the engines for a couple of Vince Rinaldi's Rolling Thunder hulls.

T2x

I presume that means that you have no factual counter point to my post, but you felt that you had to say something contrary nonetheless???

:p:p:p:D

T2x

One last point on cats' turning capability, watch a Champ Boat race in person and tell me cats can't turn. They are the fastest turning racing vehicles....of any kind....on the planet.

T2x

A lot of people like to boat. Few "boaters"

There were no vee's within a half mile of the Skater Freedom US1 and my 368 Skater in the Chicago 07 PR. 3 helicopter vids and numerous entrants will confirm the water conditions. Lots of modern big power 47+ and canopied race vee's were there. We had two girls LOLing in the boat too. Cat baby. :sport009:

That is a beautiful helo shot. What size waves?

I thought Formula 1 race cars laid claim to that title on the ground and the unlimited class Reno air racers in the air:D

Nope and nope........

You have to see a Champ boat turn to believe it.........I speak from first hand racing experience in the cockpit.......the G's are indescribable.

From the Champ Boat website.........

"High Speed Turns and Pure Excitement
High speeds, sharp turns and constant action
• Due to the shape of their tunnel hulls, Champ Boats are able to turn almost instantaneously
• Incurring more "G" forces than any other racing machine on earth
• Enables them to race close to river banks and lake shores
• Provides excellent spectator viewing

Champ Class (F1)
• Nearly identical to the Formula 1 machines raced internationally on the UIM circuit
• Champ Boats are 17 feet long and weigh just 1,150 pounds with driver
• 380-horsepower engines enable them to reach speeds of 140 miles per hour "

T2x

Its freaky how hard those boats turn. Real freaky.

It makes you question what you're seeing with your own eyes...... blast into a 25' diameter 2 pin turn at 125 +... drop the nose and literally 1 second later..the boat is going in the opposite direction at over 100........

T2x

You are quite correct SIR! :D

Question for T2X: How does the placement of the prop (i.e. single engine - center vs twin engine) affect the speed, efficiency, and rough water ability on a cat? Is a single engine cat more safe and/or stable than a same size twin?

I'm sure TX2 and Thor Heyerdahl ran into a similar question when they constructed Kon Tiki.

no........... for many reasons:

1. A single engine cat installation fills the tunnel exit adding compression and disturbing natural airflow. This engine placement will also tend to "trip" the hull upon re-entry after going airborne, perhaps increasing the tendency of the craft to stuff. The lone partial exception to this rule may be the above mentioned Champ boats which have such streamlined lower units and small propellers (see my avatar and prop pix below) that there is not as much disturbance or drag..... but there is still more than a dual application would create.

2. Twin engines allow for counter rotation and, if you spin them out, following the laws of nature and physics as God intended, you will achieve neutral torque and balance from the prop rotation.

3. In twin engine installations the sponsons protect the center section or upper drive components from random blasts of water at speed thereby adding durability to the drives. (when we raced triple outboard cats the center engine durability was always lower than the outboard mounted motors). Again you also reduce drag since most, if not all, of the gearcases' frontal area is "hidden" by the sponsons.

Of course these are just my humble opinions, based on decades of testing and development, rather than the "facts" that are readily available at Poker Run Cocktail parties and in West Coast Cat ads........... or from "State of the Art" Apache fans......:p

T2x

Comanche3Dollar:

You took the words right out of Thor's mouth.

Tee TWO EXX

Old guys usually know the best stories and jokes...

Now has anyone trying skating with using a single leg or using both ?
Which way is more stable turns better handles better and is faster ?

The answer is not a Fountain (with XXX monthly paments...).

Drag??? What drag???

Funny no one mentioned Larry Smith yet...regarding state of the art construction he was at the top of the game in monohulls at the time Apache came into the scene...

right there in the picture...if you can´t see it you´ve been into too many poker run cocktails...

It depends, are you standing still or moving? You can turn tighter faster on one leg.

I'm glad we're past the arguing stage. We're into the group hug, slapping each other on the back, remember the good ole' days stage. A question was asked that wasn't answered. Can a cat turn like a vee? I agree totally that a Champ boat will out turn a 47 Apache. What about size for size, weight for weight?

I've never been in a cat and am curious. :)