Well It is time for a change-Poker Runs and Racing
09-15-2013 | 07:42 PM
#441
VIP Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 5,743
Likes: 138
From: Marco Island, FL; Waterloo, ON, CAN
Something to think about - lets say there is an accident of some kind behind the pace boat and speeds are low triple digit. Does the operator of the pace boat ( most often a volunteer ) get dragged into a lawsuit because some lawyer has decided he was guiding the boats too fast or in an unsafe manner? They seem to have a way of doing such things. The problem is not an easy one to solve as we all struggle for answers to keep everyone safe in a dangerous sport.
BTB
__________________
/Users/robertbarnhart/Desktop/Ft MyersLogo 4.jpg
/Users/robertbarnhart/Desktop/Ft MyersLogo 4.jpg
Last edited by Bobthebuilder; 09-15-2013 at 08:56 PM.
09-15-2013 | 09:08 PM
#442
Registered
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 5,008
Likes: 752
From: Traverse City, Michigan
That would certainly take the " race " out of poker runs and could work if everyone behaves. Rigid enforcement again will be necessary until everyone gets the message.
Something to think about - lets say there is an accident of some kind behind the pace boat and speeds are low triple digit. Does the operator of the pace boat ( most often a volunteer ) get dragged into a lawsuit because some lawyer has decided he was guiding the boats too fast or in an unsafe manner? They seem to have a way of doing such things. The problem is not an easy one to solve as we all struggle for answers to keep everyone safe in a dangerous sport.
BTB
Something to think about - lets say there is an accident of some kind behind the pace boat and speeds are low triple digit. Does the operator of the pace boat ( most often a volunteer ) get dragged into a lawsuit because some lawyer has decided he was guiding the boats too fast or in an unsafe manner? They seem to have a way of doing such things. The problem is not an easy one to solve as we all struggle for answers to keep everyone safe in a dangerous sport.
BTB
ed
09-15-2013 | 09:47 PM
#443
Registered
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 270
Likes: 0
[QUOTE=Tantrum;3996297]So what your saying is we wont be seeing any more Turbine Marine rigged open cockpit Poker Run boats?[/
No. We have 4 new open boats in production.
No. We have 4 new open boats in production.
Last edited by J Arruda; 09-15-2013 at 11:08 PM.
09-15-2013 | 10:13 PM
#445
Registered
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 4,224
Likes: 1
From: West Creek NJ
There’s been a good deal of chatter about the recent tragedy at the Lake Cumberland Poker Run and what might be done to prevent anything similar from happening in the future. Some of the chatter has been absolutely pitiful. (Have some respect; two good people lost their lives.) Some has been “pie in the sky” ideas such as helicopter pacing and closed courses. Some has been good, constructive thoughts about certain individual ideas that might help. I however have only seen on really well thought out and complete proposal on solving the problems – written by Marc Blondin. (From the former Smoke on the Water Poker Run, so he ought to know.)
As someone with over 50 years of boating experience (both sail and power), a former club level racer, the former Race Director (Divisional APBA race) for the Rochester Offshore Powerboat Association and both 22 year participant and sometimes organizer of ROPA’s annual Poker Run, I think I’m qualified to offer a few suggestions and can also tell you what does not work.
Before I get to the details though, let me mention a couple of things. First, closing the course as is done during an actual race is a great idea – but totally unworkable for 99% of the Poker Run courses out there. I have personal experience with closing a portion of Lake Ontario for an APBA Divisional race and let me tell you, it’s almost impossible to do. If you think for a minute that a row of brightly colored buoys every 100 feet, numerous Picket Boats with brightly colored flags, numerous Law Enforcement and Coast Guard vessels patrolling the line and the course and regular VHF radio broadcasts is going to keep Ma and Pa Kettle in their 16’ Bayliner from rambling into the center of the course, you’re sorely mistaken. (Ask me how I know that.)
Second, there’s simply no such thing as a 140+ MPH “pleasure boat” that can be safely operated at anywhere near its top speed on an uncontrolled body of water. Even if you have racing experience, pleasure boaters – who have just as much right to be on the water as we do – can pop up out of nowhere and you’re just not going to have time to take evasive action. Even a fully equipped race boat cannot safely operate at anywhere near its top speed on an uncontrolled course and any good racer will tell you that they wouldn’t even dream of it. Why “the Chiropractor for the Stars” who has more money than brains, zero racing experience and can’t even dock without causing widespread carnage thinks he (or she) can do it just makes me foam at the mouth.
Third, sure spectators want to see the “the big guys going stupid fast.” Sure, all of the videos show them hooting and hollering when somebody goes by at 150 MPH twenty feet off their bow. These same people however will be the first ones to sue everybody in sight if they’re injured – even due to their own stupidity. And given the current legal climate in this country, sadly, they’ll probably win.
Finally, the single biggest problem we need to fix is turning Poker Runs back into what they were designed to be and not thinly disguised races or opportunities to race. A Poker Run should be a safe, relaxing day with a bunch of other people who enjoy safe, high performance boating. “Terrorizing the local population” and “needlessly putting others at risk” should not be part of the program. If you really want to race, join one of the many sanctioning bodies, learn the rules, buy a real race boat (start small and work your way up) and take a Tres Martin course!
Enough venting. Here what I’d propose and there’s a good deal in common with Marc’s proposal:
1) A 110 MPH speed limit for all boats during the run
2) Absolutely no racing - period
3) Approved PFD’s to be worn by all participants any time the boat is on plane
4) Any boat capable of over 55 MPH must have a functioning Kill Switch for each engine and the tether must be attached to the driver / throttleman any time the boat is on plane
5) “Fleets” with pre-announced speeds guided by Pace Boats where participants can select just how fast they want to run
6) Absolutely no passing of the Pace Boat(s)
7) Strict adherence to all local laws and regulations such as “No Wake” zones and safe distances from shore / other boaters
8) No alcohol for drivers or participants until after the run has officially finished
9) Since the course will by definition be “uncontrolled,” all standard “Rules of the Road” will apply and non-participants will be given a wide berth and considered to have the right of way
10) Breakage of any of the above rules will lead to disqualification from the run and a report to the local law enforcement officials if deemed serious enough by the organizers
Will these rules stop people from dying in Poker Runs? For the most part, I believe they will. They will not however prevent folks with more money than brains or common sense from doing stupid things in boats they are not qualified to run or running at unsafe speeds and paying the ultimate price. The alternative will be government instituting insanely complex and / or totally unworkable rules that will effectively outlaw Poker Runs. Which would you like to see?
Tom
As someone with over 50 years of boating experience (both sail and power), a former club level racer, the former Race Director (Divisional APBA race) for the Rochester Offshore Powerboat Association and both 22 year participant and sometimes organizer of ROPA’s annual Poker Run, I think I’m qualified to offer a few suggestions and can also tell you what does not work.
Before I get to the details though, let me mention a couple of things. First, closing the course as is done during an actual race is a great idea – but totally unworkable for 99% of the Poker Run courses out there. I have personal experience with closing a portion of Lake Ontario for an APBA Divisional race and let me tell you, it’s almost impossible to do. If you think for a minute that a row of brightly colored buoys every 100 feet, numerous Picket Boats with brightly colored flags, numerous Law Enforcement and Coast Guard vessels patrolling the line and the course and regular VHF radio broadcasts is going to keep Ma and Pa Kettle in their 16’ Bayliner from rambling into the center of the course, you’re sorely mistaken. (Ask me how I know that.)
Second, there’s simply no such thing as a 140+ MPH “pleasure boat” that can be safely operated at anywhere near its top speed on an uncontrolled body of water. Even if you have racing experience, pleasure boaters – who have just as much right to be on the water as we do – can pop up out of nowhere and you’re just not going to have time to take evasive action. Even a fully equipped race boat cannot safely operate at anywhere near its top speed on an uncontrolled course and any good racer will tell you that they wouldn’t even dream of it. Why “the Chiropractor for the Stars” who has more money than brains, zero racing experience and can’t even dock without causing widespread carnage thinks he (or she) can do it just makes me foam at the mouth.
Third, sure spectators want to see the “the big guys going stupid fast.” Sure, all of the videos show them hooting and hollering when somebody goes by at 150 MPH twenty feet off their bow. These same people however will be the first ones to sue everybody in sight if they’re injured – even due to their own stupidity. And given the current legal climate in this country, sadly, they’ll probably win.
Finally, the single biggest problem we need to fix is turning Poker Runs back into what they were designed to be and not thinly disguised races or opportunities to race. A Poker Run should be a safe, relaxing day with a bunch of other people who enjoy safe, high performance boating. “Terrorizing the local population” and “needlessly putting others at risk” should not be part of the program. If you really want to race, join one of the many sanctioning bodies, learn the rules, buy a real race boat (start small and work your way up) and take a Tres Martin course!
Enough venting. Here what I’d propose and there’s a good deal in common with Marc’s proposal:
1) A 110 MPH speed limit for all boats during the run
2) Absolutely no racing - period
3) Approved PFD’s to be worn by all participants any time the boat is on plane
4) Any boat capable of over 55 MPH must have a functioning Kill Switch for each engine and the tether must be attached to the driver / throttleman any time the boat is on plane
5) “Fleets” with pre-announced speeds guided by Pace Boats where participants can select just how fast they want to run
6) Absolutely no passing of the Pace Boat(s)
7) Strict adherence to all local laws and regulations such as “No Wake” zones and safe distances from shore / other boaters
8) No alcohol for drivers or participants until after the run has officially finished
9) Since the course will by definition be “uncontrolled,” all standard “Rules of the Road” will apply and non-participants will be given a wide berth and considered to have the right of way
10) Breakage of any of the above rules will lead to disqualification from the run and a report to the local law enforcement officials if deemed serious enough by the organizers
Will these rules stop people from dying in Poker Runs? For the most part, I believe they will. They will not however prevent folks with more money than brains or common sense from doing stupid things in boats they are not qualified to run or running at unsafe speeds and paying the ultimate price. The alternative will be government instituting insanely complex and / or totally unworkable rules that will effectively outlaw Poker Runs. Which would you like to see?
Tom
09-16-2013 | 08:59 AM
#447
Thread Starter
Registered
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 4,025
Likes: 4
From: Spring Lake, Michigan
Interesting to me that I started this thread in 2008 and how it got traction again with the second death at the Cumberland event
Some insight I have written before but does not seem to sink in
I think we need this dialog WE NEED CHANGE! But if you think this info is not being watched and amassed for future litigation just realize that one of the guys participating in this discussion is MIKE A. Folks this guy is a lawyer who has enough offshore boating info to be dangerous, and has proven he likes to get into the litigation frey regarding this type of thing. Mike A is the lawyer suing as a result of the Key West accident that killed Joey Gratton. According to a PM Mike wrote to someone on OSO He he was a supposedly a consultant to lawyers that sued as a result of the accident we had at SOTW (I can not confirm if this is true or not but It is what he claimed to someone else) I do know he called authority's here soon after after the accident, as they came to me asking who this guy (Mike A ) was.
Now if the big guys want to go that fast they need to GO RACING or to organized shoot outs. Average speeds are much faster than when the accident happened at our event (2005) Also the accident at our event was in a V hull (42 Outerlimits) so accidents are not exclusive to cats. Someone said at one point “If you restrict the speeds the big boys won't come” I did not used to feel this way but as a promotor I could not afford the “Big Boys “ attending my event anymore if they are going to act outside the rules, and speed limits set for the weekend. Then I guess they just should not attend.
I am continually told “There is no speed limit on the water” Look out sports fans because that is coming sooner than later
Offshore racing could benefit from Poker Run rules and enforcement.
Today offshore racing it is a joke. The fact that a boat race can come off with as few as 12 boats running in 3 or more categories is embarrassing. The racing is not to often offshore, it is now roundy round. These guys with big rigs, and even bigger purse strings could help propel the sport back into true professional entity as apposed to a laughable hobby. Racing needs to bring back the STARS safety team and move forward to the most exciting event it could be.
For many years the boat manufactures have said that the Poker Run is a better target audience for there product. Maybe it is also time to try to encourage the manufacturers to continue to market to the poker runners an alternative (most all now build a center console boat) but to try to work with “The big boys” to build them race boats and encourage them through support or sponsorship so they can go racing. We can not dictate their business, but maybe we can get them to work with us to push a racing direction
The days of being able to act irresponsible at an event, and leave after the weekend fun only to have the promoter have to answer for attendees poor behavior are now gone. In 2005 we did not have the camera phones, facebook, and gopro technology over load like we have today. Now people are able to prove the poor behavior via technology. This technology will also aid in the demise of many poker runs. I keep saying this “Get your heads out of the sand the Clock is counting down” Lets make poker runs fun low key events and place racing back into the “I can bring it better than you can” event it should be.
Some insight I have written before but does not seem to sink in
I think we need this dialog WE NEED CHANGE! But if you think this info is not being watched and amassed for future litigation just realize that one of the guys participating in this discussion is MIKE A. Folks this guy is a lawyer who has enough offshore boating info to be dangerous, and has proven he likes to get into the litigation frey regarding this type of thing. Mike A is the lawyer suing as a result of the Key West accident that killed Joey Gratton. According to a PM Mike wrote to someone on OSO He he was a supposedly a consultant to lawyers that sued as a result of the accident we had at SOTW (I can not confirm if this is true or not but It is what he claimed to someone else) I do know he called authority's here soon after after the accident, as they came to me asking who this guy (Mike A ) was.
Now if the big guys want to go that fast they need to GO RACING or to organized shoot outs. Average speeds are much faster than when the accident happened at our event (2005) Also the accident at our event was in a V hull (42 Outerlimits) so accidents are not exclusive to cats. Someone said at one point “If you restrict the speeds the big boys won't come” I did not used to feel this way but as a promotor I could not afford the “Big Boys “ attending my event anymore if they are going to act outside the rules, and speed limits set for the weekend. Then I guess they just should not attend.
I am continually told “There is no speed limit on the water” Look out sports fans because that is coming sooner than later
Offshore racing could benefit from Poker Run rules and enforcement.
Today offshore racing it is a joke. The fact that a boat race can come off with as few as 12 boats running in 3 or more categories is embarrassing. The racing is not to often offshore, it is now roundy round. These guys with big rigs, and even bigger purse strings could help propel the sport back into true professional entity as apposed to a laughable hobby. Racing needs to bring back the STARS safety team and move forward to the most exciting event it could be.
For many years the boat manufactures have said that the Poker Run is a better target audience for there product. Maybe it is also time to try to encourage the manufacturers to continue to market to the poker runners an alternative (most all now build a center console boat) but to try to work with “The big boys” to build them race boats and encourage them through support or sponsorship so they can go racing. We can not dictate their business, but maybe we can get them to work with us to push a racing direction
The days of being able to act irresponsible at an event, and leave after the weekend fun only to have the promoter have to answer for attendees poor behavior are now gone. In 2005 we did not have the camera phones, facebook, and gopro technology over load like we have today. Now people are able to prove the poor behavior via technology. This technology will also aid in the demise of many poker runs. I keep saying this “Get your heads out of the sand the Clock is counting down” Lets make poker runs fun low key events and place racing back into the “I can bring it better than you can” event it should be.
09-16-2013 | 10:51 AM
#448
Registered
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 3,528
Likes: 10
From: Pompano Beach, Florida
09-16-2013 | 12:56 PM
#450
Gold Member
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,988
Likes: 212
From: Rochester, NY
