Like Tree9Likes

63' Bertram Possibly stuffed off SC???

Reply
Old 01-13-2010, 09:39 PM
  #41
Registered
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: naples,florida
My Boats: 19'baron to name a few
Posts: 3,539
Default

From reading over at Yacht Forums there is a manufacturer down the street from Bertram that states that Bertram was buying some cheap ass coring that some guy was trying to sell him over and over that he stated was not worthy of making flower arrangments with.

I tell you it was cool to go around to all the shops back in 95 in the Outerbanks when i was there.One of the guys i worked with was a local and new all the bulders, most of then in old barns or old Wharfs and all with 1 or 2 big 60 to 70 battle wagons being built from a pile of lumber and epoxy and an idea.

Scarborough was built on an old wharf covered by a fish shack. He built some of the prettiest Carolina boats out there.Sonny Briggs was the old man who started the Carolina idea and he built rightside up out in the open field by the bay.There were a few others that started building cold molded and one that was a foam core boat,
I remember Paul saying to me what is the sense in building all that framework for a boat referring to the cold molding process if you are not going to leave it in the boat,
The frames were the strength in all his boats and weighed miniumally.
All the wood epoxy Carolina boats are built out of Juniper. This is a swamp grown white Cedar that is clear of Knots and is almost impervious to rot.But the best feature is it is light like Balsa wood but has the strength of a much heavier material.

Last edited by tommymonza; 01-13-2010 at 09:42 PM.
tommymonza is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2010, 07:09 AM
  #42
Registered
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Freehold, NJ
My Boats: 32 SeaCraft
Posts: 1,381
Default

tommy monza you're right about NC boys, we leave our boat in Wanchese for the spring and fall at Gwaltney old shop by Spencer and Holton. I'm amazed how they build a boat!

I'm tending to agree the boat stuffed, I fish alongside the charter guys from OI, stay at couples houses sometimes, pretty freindly with some. They run their boat easy and when it's a little snotty going out there they back them down allot!

I understand their charter boats and all the reasons but maybe these boats are just getting too fast and the captains still think they do 19 knots!

My old 52' Hat was a great boat, came off a wave so hard one time bent both tower legs, the boat was 6 months old. Pipewelders did it underwarranty and replaced both legs with larger ones and that boat ran 23-24 kts flat out! They had never seem such a bend before - maybe you're all right too light, too fast and captain thinking it's like an old slow 54' Bertram that was shown in the ads years ago!!!
HabanaJoe is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2010, 11:28 AM
  #43
Registered
 
ViciousOne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: North Channel, Lake St. Clair. MI.
My Boats: Vicious marine, 2000, Avenger 32 Cat
Posts: 513
Default

This was some great reading !
ViciousOne is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2010, 11:52 AM
  #44
Registered
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 2,791
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mccaffertee View Post
Balsa has its greatest strength in compression, if the outside skin gets hit, the inside also will be damaged directly at impact... there is NO spreading of the load like a quality foam core, which would do that in an instance - Plastic core comes in a wide spectrum of density and the only valid reason to use Wood is cost, overriding engineering common sense.
The vast majority of your claims are proven not to be true.
( see the 3rd party published comparative core material table.)

Actually Balsa has vastly greater strength across almost all measurable indexes.

Tensile , compressive, shear, and modulus.

In some measurements its superiority is orders of magnitude. In only a few is it even close.

Im open to learn though...do you have any data independent of your opinion to back up your claims?

I would say the only reason to use foam is weight-or because you dont have the ability to vac bag/Infuse.
A full foam boat yields a severe compromise in strength and a TINY decrease in weight.

This is why even when there is no limit placed on cost- builders (like say Skater) prefer Balsa over all other core materials. ESPECIALLY on running surfaces, tops can be compromised, but if you were to take a jet ski hit against your boat which core material would you pick based on eth chart? Pretty simple choice.

However Balsa MUST be vac bagged or infused to guarantee bonding. This further INCREASES production cost and time to build resulting in a more expensive but superior product.

Uncle Dave
Attached Thumbnails
63' Bertram Possibly stuffed off SC???-core-material-comparison.jpg  

Last edited by Uncle Dave; 01-14-2010 at 01:11 PM. Reason: spelling , grammar
Uncle Dave is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2010, 01:01 PM
  #45
Registered
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: naples,florida
My Boats: 19'baron to name a few
Posts: 3,539
Default

Even if the foam core was not the issue, if the history of the secondary bonds on the tabbing of bulkheads coming undone is an indicator of how welll the hull to deck bond was than there is the beginning of the problem.
The deck is providing 50 percent of the strength of that forward area between the waterline and sheer.If that tabbing had started to fail over a period a hundred hours it most likely went unnoticed unless someone was looking for it.
The captain may have been pushing it a little harder than what he said or maybe it was just coming down into that last wave that finally was the last straw for the hull to deck joint.
Anyways once the hull and deck seperated there was no real support in the forward section of the hull to push tons of water.
The hull than proceeded to cave in like a wet shoebox and the force of the water peeled back the deck.

Game Over.

Now how the transom was ripped clean off is another story.

Buizilla you making new friends over there.

If you look at any Carolina custom built boat they run with a very bow high attitude not flat like the BERTs and other production boats.They do this with very flat deadrise at the stern and a ton of rocker to get that nose up. A nice sharp entry cuts the wave and the high attitude rides over it.No need to have a 15 to 20 degree bottom on a boat that the transom should never be out of the water so what good is the deep v of the production boats doing back there doing other than creating excessive drag.

A Carolina boat is designed with a very sharp entry that makes the inside forward 12 feet of the boat useless as it is to narrow, and than above the chine goes out into an exaggerated flare.The dee sharp entry cuts the wave and the flare gradaully lifts the bow back up if it is being driven down into the wave.Also the Carolina boats surface area between the chine and the sheer is convex and not concave as all the production boats are.Even in the forward heavily flared areas the area between the chine and until it goes into the flare has a convex built into it. This added element doubles the strength of this broad flat area should the boat bury the nose or land hard on it side.

The production builders are mostly fluff and glitz.Their designs are left over from their old mentality of 35 years ago.The only thing that made them tough was shear mass and layer upon layer of fiberglass plowing through the water at 17 knots .Now they have been playing catch up to the custom builders and are trying to match their speeds with their antiquitated design mentality and hi tech construction. and huge amounts of horsepower.

Last edited by tommymonza; 01-14-2010 at 01:32 PM.
tommymonza is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2010, 01:21 PM
  #46
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
 
animalhouse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Warwick, RI
Posts: 985
Default

My theory on the transom is just a theory, but when the foredeck failed and delaminated, all of that water was forced through the lazzarette and lower bilge and exited at the transom, basicly blowing it clear off the back of the boat. The transoms are designed to take forces from behind, (backing down) but i doubt anybody thought about thousands of gallons being forced through at 25+ knots pushing outward.
animalhouse is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2010, 01:39 PM
  #47
Registered
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: naples,florida
My Boats: 19'baron to name a few
Posts: 3,539
Default

The problem with that theory is there is a large thick main bulkhead infrontt of the engine room.All the damage was in front of this bulhead,I do not believe it was nor could have been breached.One theory was that the water came up through the salon and out the salon door blowing out the transom. That i might buy if i could really believe the boat was that shoddily built which i don;t.But also the absolute clean break of the transom at the hawsepipes coming through the aft coaming is very indicative of something exerting extreme force at those. The absolute clean break at the rubrail is odd also.

Last edited by tommymonza; 01-14-2010 at 01:41 PM.
tommymonza is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2010, 04:11 PM
  #48
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Rhode Island
My Boats: 377 Talon
Posts: 45
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ViciousOne View Post
This was some great reading !
Ditto Vicious one some very cool stuff here and great thread
yeller gambler is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2010, 05:43 PM
  #49
Registered
 
AIR TIME's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: EASTON MA.
My Boats: BAJA OL 650HP/ SABER 28 Gellner unlimited with konrad ace
Posts: 6,281
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by animalhouse View Post
There is nothing wrong with a cored boat, if done properly. In fact if done properly the cored laminate is just as strong or stronger, with a serious weight advantage.
I ment that these sf boat companies don't have the knowledge it seems doing the coring either hand layed or vac bag, like OL/SKATER/SABER just to name a few out of the so many hi po boat companies. and they the sf co should pay for lessons from one of the above to teach there in house guys to do it right. my buddy bought a viking 57 new and had hugh troubles with it for the 1st couple of years had the marina that I use to belong to do all the repairs after viking screwed them back up. at the marina the head glass guy goes to all shows with new updates on building painting and is a awesome painter.
AIR TIME is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2010, 06:00 PM
  #50
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
 
Steve 1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Beautiful Fort Lauderdale www.cheetahcat.com
My Boats: Slippery when wet!
Posts: 10,833
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Dave View Post
The vast majority of your claims are proven not to be true.
( see the 3rd party published comparative core material table.)

Actually Balsa has vastly greater strength across almost all measurable indexes.

Tensile , compressive, shear, and modulus.

In some measurements its superiority is orders of magnitude. In only a few is it even close.

Im open to learn though...do you have any data independent of your opinion to back up your claims?

I would say the only reason to use foam is weight-or because you dont have the ability to vac bag/Infuse.
A full foam boat yields a severe compromise in strength and a TINY decrease in weight.

This is why even when there is no limit placed on cost- builders (like say Skater) prefer Balsa over all other core materials. ESPECIALLY on running surfaces, tops can be compromised, but if you were to take a jet ski hit against your boat which core material would you pick based on eth chart? Pretty simple choice.

However Balsa MUST be vac bagged or infused to guarantee bonding. This further INCREASES production cost and time to build resulting in a more expensive but superior product.

Uncle Dave
LOL Uncle learn a little more about those numbers "greater strength and all indexes" then the ASTM testing where they come from !!! the high end cores like core cell follow hooks law and will YELD a BIT (like bending a steel bar) which THE ASTM testing marks as "failure" BUT IT DID NOT FAIL IT moved which is what you would want !!with me so far?? and if a balsa Panel moves it breaks/fails instantly with disastrous results… Here some simple drop hammer testing see if you can spot the wood inferior core material there! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRzyw0Jo8Zg

Last edited by Steve 1; 01-14-2010 at 06:02 PM.
Steve 1 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Reply



Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:17 AM.


Copyright 2011 OffShoreOnly. All rights reserved.