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63' Bertram Possibly stuffed off SC???

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Old 01-14-2010, 06:29 PM
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LOL Uncle learn a little more about those numbers "greater strength and all indexes" then the ASTM testing where they come from !!! the high end cores like core cell follow hooks law and will YELD a BIT (like bending a steel bar) which THE ASTM testing marks as "failure" BUT IT DID NOT FAIL IT moved which is what you would want !!with me so far?? and if a balsa Panel moves it breaks/fails instantly with disastrous results… Here some simple drop hammer testing see if you can spot the wood inferior core material there! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRzyw0Jo8Zg

Maybe you can teach me!

Heres the posted # on airex and balsa- Balsa wins by a landslide.

In the video you posted I did not see actual end grain balsa being tested here. (End grain looks like rows cut on a jigsaw backed with a scrim)

Cheetah Cat -says in that video The Core we use is Airex 63.80 and Corecell A-600

Just compare the numbers, they aren't even close, but they are light!

Actually go to Alcan or Baltek (they make airex as well and simply download the specs and compare them yourself no one needs me to do that - the numbers are what they are)

Corecell A600's numbers (see attachments) are way behind balsas. Please publish the tested numbers on airex.63.8 if you have them.

We didin't even get into heat.....

Basic PVC foam Heat Distortion Temperature is around 150 degrees. That's about the temperature the white deck gets baking under the summer sun.
Add some color to the surface and temperatures will begin to soar.

Black painted surfaces on boats get as high as 237 degrees. That's why you see foam cored boats with painted dark trim, or dark gelcoat colors, that look like a checkerboard. Heat distortion is irreversible.

These foams will also begin to stretch or creep when heated, resulting in the laminates loosing their design strength. Structures can actually change shape. The HDT of balsa is about 350 degrees.

I didnt invent the #'s Im just reporting them.




UD
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Last edited by Uncle Dave; 01-14-2010 at 07:05 PM. Reason: more fing spelling errors....
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Old 01-14-2010, 07:05 PM
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Maybe you can teach me!

Heres the posted # on airex and balsa- Balsa wins by a landslide.

In the video you posted I did not see actual end grain balsa being tested here. (End grain looks like rows cut on a jigsaw backed with a scrim)

Cheetah Cat -says in that video The Core we use is Airex 63.80 and Corecell A-600

Just compare the numbers, they aren't even close, but they are light!

Actually go to Alcan or Baltek (they make airex as well and simply download the specs and compare them yourself no one needs me to do that - the numbers are what they are)

Corecell A600's numbers (see attachments) are way behind balsas. Please publish the tested numbers on airex.63.8 if you have them.

We didin't even get into heat.....

Basic PVC foam Heat Distortion Temperature is around 150 degrees. That's about the temperature the white deck gets baking under the summer sun.
Add some color to the surface and temperatures will begin to soar.

Black painted surfaces on boats get as high as 237 degrees. That's why you see foam cored boats with painted dark trim, or dark gelcoat colors, that look like a checkerboard. Heat distortion is irreversible.

These foams will also begin to stretch or creep when heated, resulting in the laminates loosing their design strength. Structures can actually change shape. The HDT of balsa is about 350 degrees.

I didnt invent the #'s Im just reporting them.




UD



Uncle those sheets will give you exactly enough info to get someone hurt or worse in my world.

The D-50 and the D-100 were balsa. In the test and some cross-linked foam was in there happily failing as well.

And as for the Balsa I would not use it in anything aside from a flower Planter I have been using these high end Foams for almost 30 years now.

Infusing Balsa LOL is exactly that!! the core gets filled with resin as well. Core Cell a third generation core is a SAN Plastic an Engineering material itís real world uses include the gas tanks on cigarette lighters aside from 100ís of other uses yes in the old days we used Airex with no problem check your little sheet there it will have the highest peel strength also.

Look it is quite simple we have say a large china dinner plate supported and a piece of Lexan so we start to load them the plate will appear stronger then disaster it shatters but the lexan is still assuming loading. Airex is made in Switzerland there was a pictue of one of our boats hanging in their office there.
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Old 01-14-2010, 08:18 PM
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Uncle those sheets will give you exactly enough info to get someone hurt or worse in my world.

The D-50 and the D-100 were balsa. In the test and some cross-linked foam was in there happily failing as well.

And as for the Balsa I would not use it in anything aside from a flower Planter I have been using these high end Foams for almost 30 years now.

Infusing Balsa LOL is exactly that!! the core gets filled with resin as well. Core Cell a third generation core is a SAN Plastic an Engineering material itís real world uses include the gas tanks on cigarette lighters aside from 100ís of other uses yes in the old days we used Airex with no problem check your little sheet there it will have the highest peel strength also.

Look it is quite simple we have say a large china dinner plate supported and a piece of Lexan so we start to load them the plate will appear stronger then disaster it shatters but the lexan is still assuming loading. Airex is made in Switzerland there was a pictue of one of our boats hanging in their office there.

Please show me the #'s.

Sounds like you read them and dont like outcome, and now want to say they are just "little sheets" and now insinuate your "world" is in a different league than the manufacturers that use balsa as a core material - Please spare us the theatrics.

There is a test for almost everything you'd like to compare across the board. Im sure in one or a few out of them lean towards some make of foam, overall they do not.

The test numbers from the actual manufacturers that make the products do more talking than you, or I.

Manufacturers that can run anything - choose balsa for multitudinous reasons. Like I said, I didn't invent the #'s.

Im also not "anti" anything, there is a place for foam in MANY applications.



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Old 01-14-2010, 08:39 PM
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If you speak to the experts in lamination, most who have actual real life experience, foam based cores are the way to go. If I am not mistaking, the 35 Jaguar cat that flipped in Key West years back (at over 125 mph) escaped without a scratch.

Which ones? list them.

Data please......
You've posted NO data.

Maybe these experts can give Peter Hledin at Skater a leson on how to build a boat?

To my comment above about not seeing end grain balsa ealier, it looks like this.

This is on a 22ft 1300HP twin turbo v drive Schiada these guys have been in business what 50 years?



UD
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63' Bertram Possibly stuffed off SC???-dsc05935.jpeg   63' Bertram Possibly stuffed off SC???-dsc05933.jpeg   63' Bertram Possibly stuffed off SC???-dsc05934.jpeg  

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Old 01-14-2010, 08:42 PM
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Please show me the #'s.

Sounds like you read them and dont like outcome, and now want to say they are just "little sheets" and now insinuate your "world" is in a different league than the manufacturers that use balsa as a core material - Please spare us the theatrics.

There is a test for almost everything you'd like to compare across the board. Im sure in one or a few out of them lean towards some make of foam, overall they do not.

The test numbers from the actual manufacturers that make the products do more talking than you, or I.

Manufacturers that can run anything - choose balsa for multitudinous reasons. Like I said, I didn't invent the #'s.

Im also not "anti" anything, there is a place for foam in MANY applications.



UD
Uncle One more time your numbers are bogus for Airex and Corecell (airex cells can deform 80% and corecell @60%) They did NOT fail until you understand the testing methods you will be at a loss here.. What does MTI UL Use
And why did the Balsa fail so readily in testing along with the cross linked foam while Airex and the Corecell especially the A-600 faired so much better? You tell me seems the Numbers you have are meaning less here.
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Old 01-14-2010, 08:44 PM
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Uncle One more time your numbers are bogus for Airex and Corecell (airex cells can deform 80% and corecell @60%) They did NOT fail until you understand the testing methods you will be at a loss here.. What does MTI UL Use
And why did the Balsa fail so readily in testing along with the cross linked foam while Airex and the Corecell especially the A-600 faired so much better? You tell me seems the Numbers you have are meaning less here.

WHich data show the results you speak of? Which test

Compression
Shear modulus
Shear strength
Tensile strength

Post your numbers and their sources.

BTW- its BALTEKS data not mine.

show us your data!!!!

UD

Last edited by Uncle Dave; 01-14-2010 at 08:47 PM.
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Old 01-14-2010, 08:48 PM
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Which ones? list them.

Data please......
You've posted NO data.

Maybe these experts can give Peter Hledin at Skater a leson on how to build a boat?

To my comment above about not seeing end grain balsa ealier, it looks like this.

This is on a 22ft 1300HP twin turbo v drive Schiada these guys have been in business what 50 years?



UD
Not saying that uncle BUT I did build a 488KG 36 foot by 9" Cat in 1990..With tanks and interior 1188 Pounds the first of my line.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1csGLgX4tk

And there was NO balsa to be seen otherwise it would have weighed 2500#
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Old 01-14-2010, 08:49 PM
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Steve....I'm so proud you left the Bilge!!!
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Old 01-14-2010, 08:50 PM
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WHich data show the results you speak of? Which test

Compression
Shear modulus
Shear strength
Tensile strength

Post your numbers and their sources.

BTW- its BALTEKS data not mine.

show us your data!!!!

UD
LOL those numbers are ASTM from standard testing problem is they cannot test a resilient core which is what you want.
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Old 01-14-2010, 08:51 PM
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Steve....I'm so proud you left the Bilge!!!
Thanks Buddy!
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