63' Bertram Possibly stuffed off SC???
01-14-2010 | 12:21 PM
#51
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Joined: Oct 2003
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From: Warwick, RI
My theory on the transom is just a theory, but when the foredeck failed and delaminated, all of that water was forced through the lazzarette and lower bilge and exited at the transom, basicly blowing it clear off the back of the boat. The transoms are designed to take forces from behind, (backing down) but i doubt anybody thought about thousands of gallons being forced through at 25+ knots pushing outward.
01-14-2010 | 12:39 PM
#52
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From: naples,florida
The problem with that theory is there is a large thick main bulkhead infrontt of the engine room.All the damage was in front of this bulhead,I do not believe it was nor could have been breached.One theory was that the water came up through the salon and out the salon door blowing out the transom. That i might buy if i could really believe the boat was that shoddily built which i don;t.But also the absolute clean break of the transom at the hawsepipes coming through the aft coaming is very indicative of something exerting extreme force at those. The absolute clean break at the rubrail is odd also.
Last edited by tommymonza; 01-14-2010 at 12:41 PM.
01-14-2010 | 04:43 PM
#54
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 6,283
Likes: 1
From: EASTON MA.
I ment that these sf boat companies don't have the knowledge it seems doing the coring either hand layed or vac bag, like OL/SKATER/SABER just to name a few out of the so many hi po boat companies. and they the sf co should pay for lessons from one of the above to teach there in house guys to do it right. my buddy bought a viking 57 new and had hugh troubles with it for the 1st couple of years had the marina that I use to belong to do all the repairs after viking screwed them back up. at the marina the head glass guy goes to all shows with new updates on building painting and is a awesome painter.
01-14-2010 | 05:00 PM
#55
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 10,833
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From: Beautiful Fort Lauderdale www.cheetahcat.com
The vast majority of your claims are proven not to be true.
( see the 3rd party published comparative core material table.)
Actually Balsa has vastly greater strength across almost all measurable indexes.
Tensile , compressive, shear, and modulus.
In some measurements its superiority is orders of magnitude. In only a few is it even close.
Im open to learn though...do you have any data independent of your opinion to back up your claims?
I would say the only reason to use foam is weight-or because you dont have the ability to vac bag/Infuse.
A full foam boat yields a severe compromise in strength and a TINY decrease in weight.
This is why even when there is no limit placed on cost- builders (like say Skater) prefer Balsa over all other core materials. ESPECIALLY on running surfaces, tops can be compromised, but if you were to take a jet ski hit against your boat which core material would you pick based on eth chart? Pretty simple choice.
However Balsa MUST be vac bagged or infused to guarantee bonding. This further INCREASES production cost and time to build resulting in a more expensive but superior product.
Uncle Dave
( see the 3rd party published comparative core material table.)
Actually Balsa has vastly greater strength across almost all measurable indexes.
Tensile , compressive, shear, and modulus.
In some measurements its superiority is orders of magnitude. In only a few is it even close.
Im open to learn though...do you have any data independent of your opinion to back up your claims?
I would say the only reason to use foam is weight-or because you dont have the ability to vac bag/Infuse.
A full foam boat yields a severe compromise in strength and a TINY decrease in weight.
This is why even when there is no limit placed on cost- builders (like say Skater) prefer Balsa over all other core materials. ESPECIALLY on running surfaces, tops can be compromised, but if you were to take a jet ski hit against your boat which core material would you pick based on eth chart? Pretty simple choice.
However Balsa MUST be vac bagged or infused to guarantee bonding. This further INCREASES production cost and time to build resulting in a more expensive but superior product.
Uncle Dave
Last edited by Steve 1; 01-14-2010 at 05:02 PM.
01-14-2010 | 05:29 PM
#56
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LOL Uncle learn a little more about those numbers "greater strength and all indexes" then the ASTM testing where they come from !!! the high end cores like core cell follow hooks law and will YELD a BIT (like bending a steel bar) which THE ASTM testing marks as "failure" BUT IT DID NOT FAIL IT moved which is what you would want !!with me so far?? and if a balsa Panel moves it breaks/fails instantly with disastrous results… Here some simple drop hammer testing see if you can spot the wood inferior core material there! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRzyw0Jo8Zg
Maybe you can teach me!
Heres the posted # on airex and balsa- Balsa wins by a landslide.
In the video you posted I did not see actual end grain balsa being tested here. (End grain looks like rows cut on a jigsaw backed with a scrim)
Cheetah Cat -says in that video The Core we use is Airex 63.80 and Corecell A-600
Just compare the numbers, they aren't even close, but they are light!
Actually go to Alcan or Baltek (they make airex as well and simply download the specs and compare them yourself no one needs me to do that - the numbers are what they are)
Corecell A600's numbers (see attachments) are way behind balsas. Please publish the tested numbers on airex.63.8 if you have them.
We didin't even get into heat.....
Basic PVC foam Heat Distortion Temperature is around 150 degrees. That's about the temperature the white deck gets baking under the summer sun.
Add some color to the surface and temperatures will begin to soar.
Black painted surfaces on boats get as high as 237 degrees. That's why you see foam cored boats with painted dark trim, or dark gelcoat colors, that look like a checkerboard. Heat distortion is irreversible.
These foams will also begin to stretch or creep when heated, resulting in the laminates loosing their design strength. Structures can actually change shape. The HDT of balsa is about 350 degrees.
I didnt invent the #'s Im just reporting them.
UD
Last edited by Uncle Dave; 01-14-2010 at 06:05 PM. Reason: more fing spelling errors....
01-14-2010 | 06:05 PM
#57
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 10,833
Likes: 18
From: Beautiful Fort Lauderdale www.cheetahcat.com
Maybe you can teach me!
Heres the posted # on airex and balsa- Balsa wins by a landslide.
In the video you posted I did not see actual end grain balsa being tested here. (End grain looks like rows cut on a jigsaw backed with a scrim)
Cheetah Cat -says in that video The Core we use is Airex 63.80 and Corecell A-600
Just compare the numbers, they aren't even close, but they are light!
Actually go to Alcan or Baltek (they make airex as well and simply download the specs and compare them yourself no one needs me to do that - the numbers are what they are)
Corecell A600's numbers (see attachments) are way behind balsas. Please publish the tested numbers on airex.63.8 if you have them.
We didin't even get into heat.....
Basic PVC foam Heat Distortion Temperature is around 150 degrees. That's about the temperature the white deck gets baking under the summer sun.
Add some color to the surface and temperatures will begin to soar.
Black painted surfaces on boats get as high as 237 degrees. That's why you see foam cored boats with painted dark trim, or dark gelcoat colors, that look like a checkerboard. Heat distortion is irreversible.
These foams will also begin to stretch or creep when heated, resulting in the laminates loosing their design strength. Structures can actually change shape. The HDT of balsa is about 350 degrees.
I didnt invent the #'s Im just reporting them.
UD
Heres the posted # on airex and balsa- Balsa wins by a landslide.
In the video you posted I did not see actual end grain balsa being tested here. (End grain looks like rows cut on a jigsaw backed with a scrim)
Cheetah Cat -says in that video The Core we use is Airex 63.80 and Corecell A-600
Just compare the numbers, they aren't even close, but they are light!
Actually go to Alcan or Baltek (they make airex as well and simply download the specs and compare them yourself no one needs me to do that - the numbers are what they are)
Corecell A600's numbers (see attachments) are way behind balsas. Please publish the tested numbers on airex.63.8 if you have them.
We didin't even get into heat.....
Basic PVC foam Heat Distortion Temperature is around 150 degrees. That's about the temperature the white deck gets baking under the summer sun.
Add some color to the surface and temperatures will begin to soar.
Black painted surfaces on boats get as high as 237 degrees. That's why you see foam cored boats with painted dark trim, or dark gelcoat colors, that look like a checkerboard. Heat distortion is irreversible.
These foams will also begin to stretch or creep when heated, resulting in the laminates loosing their design strength. Structures can actually change shape. The HDT of balsa is about 350 degrees.
I didnt invent the #'s Im just reporting them.
UD
Uncle those sheets will give you exactly enough info to get someone hurt or worse in my world.
The D-50 and the D-100 were balsa. In the test and some cross-linked foam was in there happily failing as well.
And as for the Balsa I would not use it in anything aside from a flower Planter I have been using these high end Foams for almost 30 years now.
Infusing Balsa LOL is exactly that!! the core gets filled with resin as well. Core Cell a third generation core is a SAN Plastic an Engineering material it’s real world uses include the gas tanks on cigarette lighters aside from 100’s of other uses yes in the old days we used Airex with no problem check your little sheet there it will have the highest peel strength also.
Look it is quite simple we have say a large china dinner plate supported and a piece of Lexan so we start to load them the plate will appear stronger then disaster it shatters but the lexan is still assuming loading. Airex is made in Switzerland there was a pictue of one of our boats hanging in their office there.
01-14-2010 | 07:18 PM
#58
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Posts: 2,801
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Uncle those sheets will give you exactly enough info to get someone hurt or worse in my world.
The D-50 and the D-100 were balsa. In the test and some cross-linked foam was in there happily failing as well.
And as for the Balsa I would not use it in anything aside from a flower Planter I have been using these high end Foams for almost 30 years now.
Infusing Balsa LOL is exactly that!! the core gets filled with resin as well. Core Cell a third generation core is a SAN Plastic an Engineering material it’s real world uses include the gas tanks on cigarette lighters aside from 100’s of other uses yes in the old days we used Airex with no problem check your little sheet there it will have the highest peel strength also.
Look it is quite simple we have say a large china dinner plate supported and a piece of Lexan so we start to load them the plate will appear stronger then disaster it shatters but the lexan is still assuming loading. Airex is made in Switzerland there was a pictue of one of our boats hanging in their office there.
The D-50 and the D-100 were balsa. In the test and some cross-linked foam was in there happily failing as well.
And as for the Balsa I would not use it in anything aside from a flower Planter I have been using these high end Foams for almost 30 years now.
Infusing Balsa LOL is exactly that!! the core gets filled with resin as well. Core Cell a third generation core is a SAN Plastic an Engineering material it’s real world uses include the gas tanks on cigarette lighters aside from 100’s of other uses yes in the old days we used Airex with no problem check your little sheet there it will have the highest peel strength also.
Look it is quite simple we have say a large china dinner plate supported and a piece of Lexan so we start to load them the plate will appear stronger then disaster it shatters but the lexan is still assuming loading. Airex is made in Switzerland there was a pictue of one of our boats hanging in their office there.
Please show me the #'s.
Sounds like you read them and dont like outcome, and now want to say they are just "little sheets" and now insinuate your "world" is in a different league than the manufacturers that use balsa as a core material - Please spare us the theatrics.
There is a test for almost everything you'd like to compare across the board. Im sure in one or a few out of them lean towards some make of foam, overall they do not.
The test numbers from the actual manufacturers that make the products do more talking than you, or I.
Manufacturers that can run anything - choose balsa for multitudinous reasons. Like I said, I didn't invent the #'s.
Im also not "anti" anything, there is a place for foam in MANY applications.
UD
01-14-2010 | 07:24 PM
#59
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 368
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From: Atlanta
If you speak to the experts in lamination, most who have actual real life experience, foam based cores are the way to go. If I am not mistaking, the 35 Jaguar cat that flipped in Key West years back (at over 125 mph) escaped without a scratch.
01-14-2010 | 07:39 PM
#60
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Which ones? list them.
Data please......
You've posted NO data.
Maybe these experts can give Peter Hledin at Skater a leson on how to build a boat?
To my comment above about not seeing end grain balsa ealier, it looks like this.
This is on a 22ft 1300HP twin turbo v drive Schiada these guys have been in business what 50 years?
UD
